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Old 08-11-2018, 11:14 AM   #31
Jim Kane
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Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

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Originally Posted by RobW View Post
One thing it "breaks" IMO is the elegance of the current 'stand during movement' rule in Wizard/Melee. All other posture changes take place during movement. From that perspective, standing from prone uses all available movement, and so no other actions are available, just as if you moved your full MA while upright.
^This^ - what RobW is pointing to - is the key sticking-point for so many GMs: Is *Standing Up" a movement, which occurs on the Movement Phase; or, is it an action, which occurs on the Action Phase; or, is it an act which requires a full 5 second turn to complete - beginning with the figures Movement phase, and concluding after his Action Phase?

This to me seems to be the key-question of interpretation which so many GMs cannot seem to agree on.

JK
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Old 08-11-2018, 11:26 AM   #32
RobW
 
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Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

I agree. But interesting enough, the rules in early Wizard are as clear as can be on this point (explicitly you stand during move phase, take no other action), and ironically it is the later AM where things don't seem to be specified at all clearly.

But my main point is that the new proposal that SJ was furiously considering ('stand after all other actions') has some drawbacks in complicating the rules as a whole, as it introduces another phase to the turn, which must be situated either before or after forced retreats, and the new phase in itself requires further detail about order of actions within it. That particular option for standing just doesn't seem worth it IMO.
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Old 08-11-2018, 11:38 AM   #33
Rick_Smith
 
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Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
^This^ - what RobW is pointing to - is the key sticking-point for so many GMs: Is *Standing Up" a movement, which occurs on the Movement Phase; or, is it an action, which occurs on the Action Phase; or, is it an act which requires a full 5 second turn to complete - beginning with the figures Movement phase, and concluding after his Action Phase?

This to me seems to be the key-question of interpretation which so many GMs cannot seem to agree on.

JK
Hi Jim, Rob, everyone.

OLD TFT RULES:
I see standing up as a posture change that happens during movement. However, if you are knocked down the rules require you to lose an option. (No staying on the ground and crawling, firing a crossbow prone, or disbelieving for example.)

So if you have a prone figure, you need to remember if they were knocked down from damage last turn. If not, they can take options while on the ground, if they have been knocked down from damage, they can only stand (or stay down) taking no other options.

MY RULES:
In my campaign, I say that if you are prone for ANY reason other than falling from damage, you can stand up during movement. (If you end up on the ground after movement, you can stand up as your option, if you have not taken your option yet.)

However, if you have fallen because of damage, you are sufficiently stunned that you may not rise during movement but stay on the ground and can only rise during your option phase. Since people get +4 DX attacking you on the ground, you are likely in a lot of trouble.

I like this. If you are in a 1 on 1 fight, and the enemy knocks you down, she will get one hit on you prone, unless your DX is MUCH higher than hers. This seems natural to me.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 08-11-2018, 11:52 AM   #34
RobW
 
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Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

Hello Rick,
Distinguishing falling from damage as opposed to falling from Trip, terrain, etc seems perfectly reasonable, although we use the 'stand-during-movement' rules for everything. I wouldn't mind using 'stand-during-action' for everything either. And your rule also sounds very playable to me, maybe we'll try it sometime. What I don't like, on reflection, is a new 'standing up' phase after Actions, and either before/after Retreats.

Anyway, one thing to possibly consider with your rule, or any 'stand-during-action' version, is whether a figure that takes more than 8 or more damage should be stunned as well as knocked down. If so, not only do foes get +4 to hit while the fighter is down, but the fighter falling from damage (but not tripping etc) will be stunned from the hit and suffering a further -2 DX.

This is if you play 5+ damage gives -2DX to next action as opposed to next turn, which seems to be what most people do.
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:11 PM   #35
zot
 
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Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

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Originally Posted by RobW View Post
So now to accommodate increased kicking while down, a new phase has to be added to the turn. Either:
Initiative, Renew Spells, Movement, Actions, Forced Retreats, Standing Ups
Or
Initiative, Renew Spells, Movement, Actions, Standing Ups, Forced Retreats

Also, 'stand after all other actions' would need to add rules to be clear in what order figures stand up, as it could affect engagement possibilities in the event of multiple figures taking this option.
I'd say it happens when archers get their second shots, in among that DX order. No extra turn phase needed.
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:12 PM   #36
Rick_Smith
 
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Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

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Originally Posted by RobW View Post
Hello Rick, ...

This is if you play 5+ damage gives -2DX to next action as opposed to next turn, which seems to be what most people do.
Hi Rob,
Thanks for the kind words.

I do not have any special phase for standing, it happens in movement (normally), or during the option phase as your option (rare, except for knock downs).

I never understood the half turn delay before you are shocked by taking heavy damage, so in my campaign if you take 5 or more points of damage, you are at -2 DX for the rest of the turn where you were hit, and all of the next turn.

Thus for low DX figures, it is possible to be at -2 DX for two actions. (Sucks to have a low DX.)

Yes, if you are knocked down you are at -2 DX (for shock), and the enemy hits you at +4 DX (for being on the ground). It is very rare for someone to fall from damage and be able to stand before the enemies beside them get in more hits.

My players REALLY dislike being knocked down in combat so they strive to get lots of armor. Which feels very realistic to me.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:23 PM   #37
Jim Kane
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Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

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Originally Posted by RobW View Post
But my main point is that the new proposal that SJ was furiously considering ('stand after all other actions') has some drawbacks in complicating the rules as a whole, as it introduces another phase to the turn, which must be situated either before or after forced retreats, and the new phase in itself requires further detail about order of actions within it. That particular option for standing just doesn't seem worth it IMO.
The problem with most of these ideas is that often, we find ourselves right back in those awkward timing situations where a figure is knocked down after he has moved, but before he can act on his Action Phase - which by the some definitions, a figure in that situation would miss 2 Action Phases due solely to timing of the event of being knocked down.

My solution around that timing issues *has always been* that a knocked down figure who wishes to stand, loses *one* Movement Phase, and, *one* Action Phase, to do so - *regardless of the order these phases are missed in*, or if these missed phases cross-over from one turn to the next turn.

In short, the cost to stand is one movement phase and one action phase; or one action phase and one movement phase - either way, it sums to the lose of one "5 second turn" of time - regardless of the actual timing or sequence of phases.

The short example of this would be:

If, on turn #1, a figure is knocked down after he moves, *but before he can act this turn*, he will miss his pending Action Phase this turn. End turn #1.

On turn #2 he misses his Movement Phase, but when his #2 Action Phase comes up, he is considered *standing* and may attack normally - having missed exactly one complete Movement Phase, and exactly one complete Action Phase, totaling 5 seconds of time; regardless of the order the phases occurred in, and were split between two different turns.

The net result is, it took him 5 seconds worth of time to stand, and he could not move nor take any other action during that time.

With no added external "house keeping" phase required.

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 08-11-2018 at 05:40 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:38 PM   #38
Anomylous
 
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Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

I think I'd rather just always treat standing up as a movement, equivalent to moving over half your MA and thus preventing you from acting on the turn where you stood up. Keeps it simple.

If you want to make taking massive blows and getting knocked down even worse than it already is, then maybe say that you're stunned and unable to move or act for one turn, but may stand up (or act while prone) on the next turn. In that case, I do like the idea of giving figures falling due to massive damage the option to stagger one hex backwards as they fall (a la Shield Rush), so that their allies have a chance to step into the breach and buy them a chance to survive.
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:47 PM   #39
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
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Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

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Originally Posted by Anomylous View Post
...
If you want to make taking massive blows and getting knocked down even worse than it already is, then maybe say that you're stunned and unable to move or act for one turn, but may stand up (or act while prone) on the next turn. In that case, I do like the idea of giving figures falling due to massive damage the option to stagger one hex backwards as they fall (a la Shield Rush), so that their allies have a chance to step into the breach and buy them a chance to survive.
Hi Anomylous,
Do people who fall get the choice of which hex they can lurch into or do you mean literally, backwards in to their rear hex?

I kinda like your suggestion of 'staggering', and I'm thinking of trying it out.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:25 PM   #40
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Phasing for falling down/standing up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
Is *Standing Up" a movement, which occurs on the Movement Phase; or, is it an action, which occurs on the Action Phase; or, is it an act which requires a full 5 second turn to complete - beginning with the figures Movement phase, and concluding after his Action Phase?

This to me seems to be the key-question of interpretation which so many GMs cannot seem to agree on.
Melee and Wizard say it is done during Movement, and that you can't move at all while standing up.

Advanced Melee says standing up is an Action done in adjDX order, and allowing one hex of movement during the movement phase.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RobW View Post
I agree. But interesting enough, the rules in early Wizard are as clear as can be on this point (explicitly you stand during move phase, take no other action), and ironically it is the later AM where things don't seem to be specified at all clearly.
What's unclear in AM?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
OLD TFT RULES:
I see standing up as a posture change that happens during movement.
That's the basic Melee / Wizard rule.

Advanced Melee has figures take a stand option which takes effect at their adjDX point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
So if you have a prone figure, you need to remember if they were knocked down from damage last turn. If not, they can take options while on the ground, if they have been knocked down from damage, they can only stand (or stay down) taking no other options.
I don't see that the rules make a distinction that way between the cause of falling down. Look at AM page 5 - even if you drop voluntarily, you can't do anything else until next turn.
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