[Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

[seycyrus]

Originally Posted by safisher

I don't think that's the case. This is a fast moving field. Part density of 99% or more is now possible...

Yes, it is a fast moving field. Technical innovations will be required to overcome various obstacles, which are often not mentioned in these articles.

It is important to note that super-strength does not equate to "ballistic strength".

I know 80% of the folks mentioned in these articles with all that implies. Technological breakthroughs will be needed to move forward.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by seycyrus

It is important to note that super-strength does not equate to "ballistic strength".

Ballistic strength has a lot of different meanings. Do you mean that the materials produced in current AM processes could not protect against any attack? That is, from a fist, knife, club, sword, arrow, etc.? Or do you mean the materials would not protect against small arms fire on the scale of a 5.56 and above? It's hard to imagine how a tool steel billet produced from AM, for instance, which can be used as a die and can withstand the immense forces of pressing out metal parts, cannot withstand a pistol or shotgun pellet!

[seycyrus]

Originally Posted by safisher

Ballistic strength has a lot of different meanings. Do you mean that the materials produced in current AM processes could not protect against any attack? That is, from a fist, knife, club, sword, arrow, etc.? Or do you mean the materials would not protect against small arms fire on the scale of a 5.56 and above?

My apologies. In my earlier response I had been more careful with my terminology. I am referring to small arms, above 5.56.

Originally Posted by safisher

It's hard to imagine how a tool steel billet produced from AM, for instance, which can be used as a die and can withstand the immense forces of pressing out metal parts, cannot withstand a pistol or shotgun pellet!

1) The high strain rate world is different than the static or quasi-static. 2) You are exactly correct in that those threats are low energy and are not what I was considering. 3) I guess it all depends on application, but many tool steel billets that I have seen are pretty damn beefy.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by seycyrus

Cutting edge ceramic plates cam take on more complex geometries besides flat. Breastplate-like at least. Put on a metallic coating, perhaps through a cold or thermal spray technique. It should take a bit of a shine.

Quite. This is one of the disadvantages that I referred to, but I am not sure how much ballistic value is lost by hitting it with a sword for instance. Even low velocity impacts move a lot faster than a swing or thrust.

Well, how medieval breastplate like could a 'painted' ceramic one be?

Also, how difficult would it be to shape improved ballistic ceramic into a breastplate or cuirass?

According to the 'Cutting-Edge Armor Design' article in Pyramid #3/85, any type of ceramic-derived ballistic armour can only come in Solid form, only sheets or gently curving plates, essentially limiting it to trauma plate applications for armouring human shapes. This applies even to the projected TL9 future development of 'Ceramic Nanocomposite'.

If you can acually get an articulated suit of plate armour made from top-of-the-line ballistic ceramic/silicon carbide/other related materials, that would alter the analysis considerably.

Originally Posted by seycyrus

I don't know. I've never seen a real study. I have hit SiC with a hammer over and over a few times and it shot just as well. Didn't look damaged either.

What if you were to cut it with a sword for a few hours a week?

Originally Posted by seycyrus

Damage localization is better than that. But even in your extreme example I'd suggest that the messy ceramic would be preferable to a slight discoloration. Because the slight discoloration would be around an entrance hole and an exit hole whereas the messy ceramic would stop the round.

Well, I don't buy that there aren't any steel alloys that can stop 5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm or even 7.62x51mm rounds. It's pretty obvious that there are, otherwise the 1/4" thick ballistic plates that are installed in luxury automobiles and rated to stop at least FMJ rounds from all of these (and often more) would not exist.

I think you are confusing 'equal protection' with 'equal protection at the same weight', which is not a design requirement here. Lighter weight is preferred over heavier, yes, but there is room for significantly heavier armour plates than you'd need if you were using ceramics.

Originally Posted by seycyrus

This type of sentiment is the one that seems to be confusing me. The US army(or whatever army you prefer) would dress its soldiers up in steel tutus if it worked, vanity be damned. There are NO "good modern alloys" that perform as well ballistically as the ceramics used. I am talking about the small calibre world here.

Different requirements. Well, Vargas is superhuman, so his requirements are not representive of anything, but even for the cartel sicarios, they don't do foot patrols in Afghanistan with 40-70 lbs. of gear aside from their body armour. They do direct action assaults, where they operate from trucks and only dismount to fight.

Long-range recon on foot isn't a thing for them. Neither is rappelling from helicopters, usually, at least. The sicarios only carry 15-25 lbs. of gear in addition to their armour, which means that they can afford to wear almost twice as much armour while retaining similar performance in the field.

Originally Posted by seycyrus

Ehh maybe. Bonds that work in the normal work, fail under ballistic load. This is floating into the world of technological innovation that you want to avoid. How many "ifs" are you willing to accept? It seems like 0 is what you want.

Perfect 100% coverage of the Torso hit location isn't a realistic design goal. Neither is complete coverage of just the Chest area in GURPS, i.e. the upper torso. Critical hits that penetrate the fault lines where the steel pieces meet are going to be a possibility, yes. Maybe even only partial coverage. I note that the weak points are likely to be much smaller gaps in protection than the coverage of any trauma plate inserts of which I'm aware.

Originally Posted by seycyrus

What requisite protective value? Static hardness is certainly not the sole and probably not the primary consideration in ballistic protection. I'd be interested in any data that shows any alloys that have the ballistic performance of modern ceramic plates.

NIJ rating or equivalent, where it has tested able to stop a given level of small arm threat.

We aren't talking about getting the required level of protection as cheaply or with the same amount of protective material. It's not the ballistic performance that needs to be equal to typical military issue body armour, it's the end result, i.e. the rounds that the armour is rated to stop. RHA steel can technically match the protection of the best ballistic polymers, ceramic and composites body armour ever issued to any soldier. You would just need so much of it that it would be impractical for the same tactical role.

Vargas requires ballistic protection that is not less than typical modern issue equipment, i.e. NIJ Level III or higher for the upper torso and possibly head, Level IIIA or higher for as much as the rest of his body as practical, while also providing the look, feel and utility of fighting re-enactor armour.

Vargas does not, however, require that his complete suit of armour be no heavier than 30-35 lbs. He is, in fact, prepared to accept a suit weighing 60-80 lbs., with the possibility of going up to 100-125 lbs. if that would give him NIJ Level III or higher protection over significantly more of his body than a lighter armour.

Vargas' requirements are protection from pistol rounds, knives, swords and shrapnel over his entire body, barring unlucky hits where mobility would be compromised if coverage was total. Most of his body will be covered by a tailored suit of the the most advanced ballistic polymer he can buy from someone like Miguel Caballero, which will be worn under his plate armour.

Vargas also needs rifle protection over the same areas that military body armour covers with small arms protective inserts. He doesn't have any illusions that this will ever be accomplished with plate armour of the same weight as boron carbide, silicon carbide or similar advanced ceramic trauma plates, let alone done as economically.

In GURPS terms, Vargas needs at least DR 25-30 on much of his upper torso (Chest location) and ideally his head. DR 40+ would be nice, but it is not a requirement, but a bonus, if possible within the weight limits. He'd want DR 20+ against ballistic threats for the rest of his torso, if at all practical. His limbs need DR 12 or higher against ballistic threats, with DR 8+ against most other threats.

By contrast, US Army issue IOTV and XSAPI plates reach DR 51 against ballistic threats where they cover the upper torso, backed with the vest and ballistic panels. We're not trying to get anywhere close to that performance, at that weight. We just want protection that is not inferior to other NIJ Level III protection for those areas most often covered by military body armour. With an option to reach the unofficial industry 'Level III+' and NIJ Level IV as an ultimate goal if the materials eventually selected exceed expectations.

Originally Posted by seycyrus

Every modern military has the need for head-to-toe ballistic protection that can stop the best modern military rounds.

Yes, but that's not what modern issue body armour does. And I very much doubt that plate armour that is two or three times heavier, a couple of orders of magnitude more expensive and only provides, at best, equivalent rated protection from rifle fire to the torso and head, would be considered to fulfil any tactical need or that that militaries would spend time on trying to develop it.

Could the coverage of military issue body armour theoretically be greater? Yes, indubitably. It would be much more expensive, heavier and probably bulkier, but it's possible. Hell, if it's true that ballistic ceramics, like silicon carbide, can be shaped into breast-and-backplates, you could get much greater coverage and probably, with the right shape, retain the same protection for a similar weight.

What has actually happened is that lighter armour that had less coverage was acquired to supplement and, in some cases, even replace the IOTV with special operations forces and assault troops like the Rangers. Sure, increased coverage while retaining mobility continues to be a goal, but it's not like the coverage and protective value are the only factors here.

Also, the replacement cost per unit of modern military body armour, including all four trauma plates, is about $2,000 to $3,000, depending on model, which contract we are talking about, etc. In theory, the military would be all about greater protection at two orders of magnitude higher price, because soldiers are expensive, combat deaths even more so and wounded veterans are perhaps the most expensive of all. In practice, it hasn't happened yet.

Originally Posted by seycyrus

This is the luck or prodigy part. Technical innovation at its best.

Making such things work together effectively in a new way IS a new thing. That is almost the definition of technological innovation.

This is why I expect it would take him five or six years to get to the point he could obtain such armour and spend roughly $2,500,000 on all the costs involved. Even though the end result might even be mostly subcontracted elsewhere, piece by piece, with the R&D mostly involving narrowing down the requirements and finding people who could do the work.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by safisher

I don't think that's the case. This is a fast moving field. Part density of 99% or more is now possible. All of these links below demonstrate various types of armor or body armor research, some of which were created and tested, with AM.

https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/...t-time-107151/

https://www.3ders.org/articles/20160...ody-armor.html

https://3dprint.com/56694/scale-inspired-body-armor/

https://www.cmtc.com/hs-fs/hub/10382..._opt_flyer.pdf

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...ace-chain-mail

https://books.google.com/books?id=Kp...0armor&f=false

Cool, thanks.

Originally Posted by safisher

This is a 3d metal printer for under $100k.
"According to Mark, the system is already capable of 3D printing with 17-4 and 303 stainless steel. The company has stated that other metals are already under development, including A-2, D-2 and M-2 tooling steel for injection molding, as well as 6061 and 7075 Aluminum and 6AL 4V Titanium."
I should point out here that tool steel is very hard steel, comparable to AR500, though not as hard.
https://www.engineering.com/3DPrinti...nder-100K.aspx

Regardless of utility to 'Project Black Knight', it seems to me that something like this could have applications in running a fleet of 200+ vehicles, which need modifications, repair of combat damage, etc. If this is at all useful in that role, I'm sure that the ordinary operating funds of the cartel could cover a part or whole of acquiring such a printer.

In fact, Caló Renteria, the mechanical engineer who oversees the Caballero Templarios cartel fleet of vehicles and their armoured truck manufacturing capabilities, will probably have the equivalent of the US Army Mobile Parts Hospital under his control, specialised for their particular needs. It might even be smaller and cheaper, but as $1,000,000 is not all that much money for actual cartel operations, it probably simply allows larger parts or faster fabrication than the version listed on p. 29 of GURPS High-Tech, allowing for some of this technology having grown cheaper, more compact but more capable since GURPS High-Tech was published.

I expect the small team working on 'Project Black Knight' will need a private 3D printer for their exclusive use, for prototyping, i.e. to build mock-ups of their design ideas for the shape of various pieces of armour, work with Vargas to ensure perfect fit, adapt their solutions to human erconomics and the various tasks Vargas wants to be able to do without hindrance, etc. Not to mention that it would be useful for sending sub-contractors perfect scale models of the parts they are to build to their specifications, whether those sub-contractors are machinists or mechanics working for Caló at the cartel vehicle yards, as part of regular cartel operations, or a custom parts manufacturer in Asia.

That 3D printer just needs to print in plastics, but I suppose they'd want a model capable of making pretty large pieces, if possible, as well as just generally being a nice model. As long as they aren't spending any more than a couple of hundred thousand dollars on the workshop dedicated exclusively to 'Project Black Knight', Vargas isn't going to object too strongly.

So, you know, I'm not definitely saying that they got a HP Jet Fusion when they were launched, but I am pretty sure that a couple of the people on the project wanted one. Depending on the utility of such an expensive piece of equipment compared to cheaper solutions, they might have gotten one, especially once they started to deliver some pleasing results and the promise of even better ones in the future.

Originally Posted by safisher

https://3dprint.com/178423/nanosteel...teel-material/

You can read here about the limits of the metal AM tech currently, and how those limits are being dealt with:
https://www.engineering.com/3DPrinti...-Printing.aspx

Awesome, thanks. I'll try to make sense of this, ideally with the assistance of some of the other players, an engineer and two computer scientists with nerdy STEM interests.

Originally Posted by safisher

You'll be making an AM armor suit in the smallest pieces possible (in many, just as the same sizes you would make them by hand). It may be that you have to make the larger segments m in multiple pieces within the specs of the printer's dimensions. You'll then have to machine some of the pieces, possibly with a CNC machine, and/or heat treat the parts, as well. The you'll assemble them, possibly using 3d printed connectors, and possibly then coating the parts. In the end, there seems to be no fundamental obstacle to using the technology for the project, given these assumptions. It would be outrageously expensive, require exotic tools and skills, but not impossible.

Ballpark it for me. What are the alternatives, when it comes to making the armour itself, once the design phase has ended?

Would this be the best way to build the individual armour pieces, before flash bainite treating them?

And what's outrageously expensive?

Remember, I've guesstimated the total budget for coming up with the end product $2,500,000 over about five to six years, ever since about 2011. That works out to about 1% of Vargas' personal household expenses over that period, which sounds about right for a hobby.

The budget also has to cover salary for those who work exlusively on the project, but most of those assisting will have real jobs with the logistics and vehicle fleet part of the cartel. They'll thus be paid out of operating funds, not Vargas' toy budget, with only the time they spend on the project when they could have been generating revenue counting as opportunity cost.

The first year or two will include a lot of valuable failures, in trying to get third-party steelworkers, fabricators or armourers to build something like his dream armour according to Vargas' specifications. He'll hire Caló Renteria, a mechanical engineer with experience in the automotive industry, in 2011 or so, mostly, of course, to work on vehicles and his logistics chain, but will eventually come to lean heavily on Caló's expertise in administration and the technical aspects of manufacturing in moving forward with his pet project.

I imagine that there was quite a lot of initial expense in 2011-2012, on ordering various custom armours and then on research of ways to do this, when there turned out to be no commercial product available. Then the project would have been on a back burner for some years, with maybe only $100,000-$200,000 spent on it each year 2013-2014, with most of the focus on other things.

By 2015, the pace would have picked up again and from that time, Vargas would have been likely to do things like import a personal armourer, head-hunt a machinist-fabricator with necessary skills and give his team a lavish budget for a dedicated workshop at his home, for those things which they don't want to do at one of their vehicle facilities.

He probably spent a million dollars over 2016 on the project and I imagine that Vargas saw some encouraging results late in that year. He'll have a Black Knight plate harness when the PCs meet him. Maybe not the dream one that meets all of his requirements, but certainly a really cool one that he loves to put on and fight with sharp steel in.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Ballpark it for me. What are the alternatives, when it comes to making the armour itself, once the design phase has ended?

I'd say you could make them with traditional hand work, or by AM, or by CNC machining, or by die forming them, or some combination thereof. Given that money is no object, you'd probably get the best value by skipping hand work and going straight to 3d rapid prototyping the design, then either AM or making dies for the parts in AM. Then you can die-form the parts you need on a press. Heat treating, if needed could simply be out-sourced to some heat treatment operations. They might wonder what the parts are, but it's not even likely to register on the "this is strange" meter. If you really needed to keep it in-house and secret, slapping together a bainite process is probably not hard or too expensive. Machining and finish work can be done by hand, if needed, or with CNC. Final process might include a cerakote in the desired colors.

And what's outrageously expensive?

I'd use the stats in Pyramid 52 for steel, very hard (0.45) or all the way down to ultra-strength steel (0.35) in Pyramid 85. As a WAG, flash bainite looks like it's in the ballpark of titanium, at 0.4 to 0.35 -- it's hard to know what the benchmark is for Pulver or the bainite to Ti comparisons. If I remember right, Pulver's TL9 Durasteel might be down to 0.3 -- and maybe that's what bainite is? Price would be $3-10 per, with max/DR and DR/In of USS.

You might consider reducing the CW of plate and solid by 10-30% for AM lightening structures, too. Of course, the custom tailoring might account for that, but I wouldn't object to adding a discount directly to CW for a finely tuned AM before the tailoring. Maybe increase CC cost if you do, say 2-5x.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by safisher

I'd say you could make them with traditional hand work, or by AM, or by CNC machining, or by die forming them, or some combination thereof. Given that money is no object, you'd probably get the best value by skipping hand work and going straight to 3d rapid prototyping the design, then either AM or making dies for the parts in AM. Then you can die-form the parts you need on a press. Heat treating, if needed could simply be out-sourced to some heat treatment operations. They might wonder what the parts are, but it's not even likely to register on the "this is strange" meter. If you really needed to keep it in-house and secret, slapping together a bainite process is probably not hard or too expensive. Machining and finish work can be done by hand, if needed, or with CNC.

Money is most certainly an object.

This is coming directly out of Vargas' budget for artisanal cocaine, custom silver-chased motorcycles with a skull motif, whole-roast oxen stuffed with crafts beer, gold-plated toilets and platinum coke straws.

Not to mention competing for resources with hypothetical projects such as a quest to make crystal meth-infused mescal in crystal bottled shaped like Vargas' masculine member, extensive plastic surgery to turn good-time-girls into faithful replicas of his first celebrity crush, a pet black panther trained to attack on command or having a 1:48 replica of downtown Tokyo built so he can plant demolition charges everywhere and blow it up while controlling a 3' tall mecha-robot in the midst of the destruction.

Also, you know, his budget for a personal entourage, hosting parties and giving allies and loyalists lavish gifts to ensure loyalty and extend his influence. His fleet of private vehicles. Flunkies, both to avoid having to ever do anything boring and to isolate him from direct contact with outsiders, to make him harder to locate within his territory. Multiple homes, some of which are designed merely as traps to deceive enemies as to where he might be at any time. Home security and counterintelligence among his closest underlings, especially those who are responsible for security and counterintelligence for the CT cartel.

Just as pimpin' ain't easy, the life of a Mexican drug lord is no picnic. Sure, $50,000,000 a year in tax free net income for personal use, after all the operational expenses of the cartel as an organisation have been accounted for, sounds like a lot, but you'd be surprised by how little it buys. He doesn't even have a private jet.

And, oh, thanks for the explanation. Should give me some alternatives to pitch.

Originally Posted by safisher

Final process might include a cerakote in the desired colors.

Black. The desired colour is black. Black as midnight, black as pitch, blacker than the foulest witch.

Originally Posted by safisher

I'd use the stats in Pyramid 52 for steel, very hard (0.45) or all the way down to ultra-strength steel (0.35) in Pyramid 85. As a WAG, flash bainite looks like it's in the ballpark of titanium, at 0.4 to 0.35 -- it's hard to know what the benchmark is for Pulver or the bainite to Ti comparisons. If I remember right, Pulver's TL9 Durasteel might be down to 0.3 -- and maybe that's what bainite is? Price would be $3-10 per, with max/DR and DR/In of USS.

I had planned to call their bainite flash treated steel 'Ultra-Strength Steel', with the new manufacturing process serving to explain how they can get similar performance as nanometric steels without being a multinational military contractor with a high-tech factory worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

Originally Posted by safisher

You might consider reducing the CW of plate and solid by 10-30% for AM lightening structures, too. Of course, the custom tailoring might account for that, but I wouldn't object to adding a discount directly to CW for a finely tuned AM before the tailoring. Maybe increase CC cost if you do, say 2-5x.

I'd say further CW reductions beyond giving their end result the stats of 'Ultra-Strength Steel' would probably be too generous. It effectively lightens 'Hard Steel' by more than 30% and 'Steel, very hard' by over 25%, so that's already quite an improvement.

Yes, the technological possibilities for even lighter, stronger designs of steel alloys are there, but the fairly small design team of the CT cartel are not anywhere close to the sophistication of the R&D departments of German and Japanese automobile companies or French, German and US government contractors in aerospace and combat aircraft applications.

Working with other materials, where I hadn't already made assumptions in their favour, though, I might give a a bonus for AM. Allow them to get the stats of 'Titanium Alloy', perhaps, rather than the inferior stats for titanium I'm sure you'd usually get for working it in a garage workshop (albeit a luxurious one).

And probably pretty good results for aluminium and easy to work steel alloys, allowing for some fairly economical copies of the HEMA/SCA/HMB armours they'd have bought earlier, justifying more sicarios having access to basic armour for fighting with live steel in, even if the DR was too low for ballistics protection.

Once they've paid a premium for a handmade historical replica in a certain design (with Stylish), it might be possible to fabricate very similar armour, altering only the measurements by user size, while paying only the base price calculated in the design system. As long as you aren't trying to get any dramatic effects, just DR 3-5 from the steel.

And if it's possible, just making the breastplate very roomy, and measuring the intended user wearing modern tactical gear, would allow the less wealthy sicarios, who might still desire that Knight Templar chic during actual combat operations, to wear an outer layer of historical replica armour that effectively has mostly a cosmetic role, while their paraaramid plate carrier and trauma plates provide the actual ballistic protection.

[dcarson]

A 3D printer is also useful for custom printing parts to make hiding places in vehicles for smuggling.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Excellent! Thanks.

I must admit that 'Segmented Plate' being much more expensive and less protective for its weight than 'Scale' has me scratching my head a bit. This is the reverse of how Low-Tech armours work, after all. And with DR 5+ 'Scale' doesn't have any weaknesses over 'Segmented Plate' in the CEAD.

You could ask David Pulver, but for a project like this I would just be inclined to treat plate as Plate and not try to model the fine details of construction. After all, you can get real prices and weights online, you don't need to calculate them!

I would save CEAD's Segmented Plate for crude things like Roman segmented armour.

You could probably fit trauma plates to the flatter kinds of pairs of plates or brigandines without anything going too badly wrong, I never wore either though.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Weight wise, certainly. But at what thickness will limb armour become too bulky or inflexible? When does it start to give mobility penalties over and above Encumbrance?

That "double the thickness" was my best guess "considering all the factors, what is the heaviest which would probably work without big changes in design and process." For a better guess you would have to talk to a plate armourer.

The Wallace A281, a jousting gauntlet for the left hand, is 1215 g so about twice as heavy as gauntlets in that style usually are.

Bulk and flexibility are two issues, but another is that moving mass at the end of a long lever arm tires you out and slows you down. Fighting in heavy greaves or gauntlets is like running in heavy boots. So some sports armour goes for very thin metal, relying on modern homogeneous alloys and heat treatment that works in degrees and minutes not colours and paternosters, and some goes for quite thick (using that to compensate for clumsy shaping or just cut down on maintenance).

I have heard as low as 0.025"/0.635 mm being used for some armour parts for stick fighting and some of the less crazy kinds of blunt steel. Some parts of some historical armour are almost that thin after all the hammerwork and grinding, but starting out with that and then losing metal ...

I don't know as much about titanium, I think it was controversial in the HMB world.

OTOH, if they are playing around with different alloys and heat-treatments and then beating each other senseless, there will probably be plenty of shattered and discoloured armour lying around. Even today, its easy to leave the metal hard enough that it shatters.

Originally Posted by Icelander

I don't think Vargas expects steel alloys commonly used in SCA/HEMA/HMB to stop rifle rounds in any practical wearable configuration.

I am just saying that in CEAD, you can get a surprising amount of bullet-resistance from a not crazy thickness of forgeable steels. I am not saying that those alloys and shapes will really do that, I am just talking about how I read those rules.

Back in the 1920s, the rule of thumb was that steel needed to be as thick as the calibre of the round it was meant to stop, and AP rounds doubled that.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by dcarson

A 3D printer is also useful for custom printing parts to make hiding places in vehicles for smuggling.

Ah, yes. Their chief mechanic, Lizandro 'Thin Lizzy' Acosto, a former mechanic for the Policia Federal, is even specifically noted in his write-up as being in charge of installing false bottoms in trunks and other concealed compartments for smuggling.