12-18-2018, 11:36 PM | #41 |
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Spear vs Sword
You only need to reduce an item to 1/3 HP to reduce it to 1/2 effectiveness.
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12-19-2018, 01:19 AM | #42 | |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: Spear vs Sword
Quote:
When I was training in fencing, we mad a point of doing plenty of spear and dagger as well as the sword in two hands and sword in one hand.
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"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature |
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12-19-2018, 05:52 AM | #43 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: Spear vs Sword
"At the GM's discretion". For a spear or other simple melee weapon, I'd not bother with that sort of fiddliness, unless it was a game all about very tactical duels and such, and not much else.
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Rupert Boleyn "A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history." |
12-19-2018, 06:39 AM | #44 |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: Spear vs Sword
It's safe to say that any tactics that rely on hacking a small tree to bits while somebody tries to kill you with it aren't the best. I don't see how the game fails to simulate more appropriate tactics:
TL; DR: Your smart move as a sword-and-shield fighter is to press as closely as possible, up to and including close combat, and rely on your shield for defense. He who hesitates (perhaps out of fear of a stop thrust) is lost.
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Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
12-19-2018, 07:11 AM | #45 | |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: Spear vs Sword
Quote:
Like polearms, they could chop and spear effectively with the force of two hands, if at slightly less distance. The "plus" refers to the fact that they had a lot more sharpened length to use at a wider variety of ranges; were built with the possibility of close combat in mind, with an unsharpened ricasso for half-swording and a hefty pommel for braining people; and had crossguards, and sometimes side rings and Parierhaken, to protect the hands on the defense. This made them useful at virtually every range (polearms rapidly became a liability in close) and valuable defensive weapons (polearms relied on "don't let that guy get close" for defense). Moreover, they were all-metal and fairly difficult to break through misfortune (and rust works more slowly than rot). Even so, "competitive" is relative. When we were researching GURPS Martial Arts (which is where I remember all of the above from), we never ran into any claims of users of such weapons making up more than 1/10 to 1/8 of a force, the rest being polearm and pike users. So they'd be outnumbered 7:1 to 9:1, which seems about right for a weapon GURPS claims costs 6-11 times as much as contemporary pikes and polearms. Which brings us to the final point: Such weapons were costly, making them status symbols. That likely made them "competitive" for hearts and minds. Any mangy mercenary or cowering conscript might carry a pointed stick, but it took a real flash cat to tote an expensive sword, and a devoted career warrior to be any good with it (with great versatility comes the need for more extensive training). For these reasons, those writing and sketching about battles doubtless tended to exaggerate both the effectiveness and prevalence of such weapons. Which said, you'll find greatswords awfully darned effective vs. polearms in GURPS. That ability to strike and parry every turn without having to choose which, be ready even after big, sweeping attacks, and move fluidly between reaches – and, if using optional rules from Martial Arts, parry lots of attackers and be deadly even in close – make it something of an Überwaffen. Which I suppose is how it should be, at $900 vs. $150 for a halberd.
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Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
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12-19-2018, 07:32 AM | #46 |
Join Date: Feb 2016
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Re: Spear vs Sword
Armed Grapple is also a possibility with Spear or Staff. Alternatively, you can purchase Technique Mastery (Counterattack [Spear]) and Counterattack (Spear) at DX+4 to create a spear wielder that is better at Counterattack than Attack. If combined with Technique Mastery (Spinning Attack [Spear]) and Spinning Attack (Spear) at DX+4, you could have a spear wielder with Spear at 16 who does Spinning Counterattacks at an effective skill 24. If the defender possesses Form Mastery (Spear), Grip Mastery (Spear), and Reach Mastery (Spear), closer who charges in with a Move and Attack would be facing a Wait (Spinning Attack) at 20 and then a Retreat (Spinning Counterattack) at 24. The spear wield could stop thrust with Spear, parry with Staff, and Counterattack with Spear (usually leaving a dead swordsman in the process).
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12-19-2018, 08:07 AM | #47 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Spear vs Sword
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Spinning is at best a committed attack so no retreating and it gives you -3 to defend , or an AoA and so no retreating and no defence (MApg79) And since your 2nd attack in that chain is a counter attack and that requires you to have made a successful defence, that means your going to potentially have issues stringing two together like that because the required defence is at -3 and no retreat bonus (although you get the staff parry bonus* for net -1**) anyway 2x hard techniques +8 = 18 + 2x TM perks = 2 for total 20pts which means if you are fighting an equally skilled swordsman your swordsmen opponent might well have brought a melee skill up which means that spinning attack QC is more of a risk and they'll be better at defending. Pull it all off though and it will look cool! *love that form mastery trick with spear/staff! **you putting defensive grip in there as well to get an extra +1 parry?
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Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation. *not too high of course Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-19-2018 at 08:33 AM. |
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12-19-2018, 08:17 AM | #48 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Spear vs Sword
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Nice! Also couple of points spent on Reverse grip technique for the swordsman means that can get into CC and still stab. And actually even at default once you get to Skill18 it's hardly worth spending points to buy past default (although the penalties for an unlucky failure are steep!)
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Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation. *not too high of course |
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12-19-2018, 08:18 AM | #49 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: Spear vs Sword
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Also, that's five combat perks, and thus a character with 21+ points in combat skills (assuming that 3+ of those perks are available through a style, and 'per x points' in MA means 'or fraction thereof', otherwise it takes 40+ points). Note that none of the styles in MA that use spears include more than two of these perks, meaning three would need to be purchased from the 'general' combat perk pool, and that means 51+ or 60+ points in combat skill. In the best case we're still looking at a quite skilled spear fighter, and a similarly skilled sword-and-board fighter will have an equally nasty array of tricks.
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Rupert Boleyn "A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history." |
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12-19-2018, 08:22 AM | #50 | ||||
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Re: Spear vs Sword
To clarify, I was thinking military rather than civilian use, since a greatsword is not an acceptable civilian sidearm in most cultures I am aware of. In a duel it is an obviously superior weapon.
I agree with most of your points, but will focus on things I don't agree with for obvious reasons. Quote:
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In my understanding, heavy infantry battle is dominated by weapons that are optimized for tight ranks, and in this situation pikes and poles are better than greatswords. However, there is a place for folks who are optimized for ripping up exposed flanks or dominating when things descend into chaos. Greatswords would shine there. Keeping a few of them around expressly for that would make sense. Quote:
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