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Old 12-18-2018, 11:36 PM   #41
Plane
 
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Default Re: Spear vs Sword

You only need to reduce an item to 1/3 HP to reduce it to 1/2 effectiveness.
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Old 12-19-2018, 01:19 AM   #42
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Default Re: Spear vs Sword

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
That has been the sword's primary attraction throughout history - it's a sidearm, so you can have it on you all the time. It's good for attack and defence as well. IF you couldn't afford a sword, a staff was the next choice - not quite as easy to carry around, but more useful for long walks on less than perfect paths.
One of the 17th century rapier treatises actually brings that up: "you do not always have your spadone or bill or rotella with you, and some cities don't let you carry a dagger and make all your hours of training useless, but you always have your sword, so we will begin with the single sword and then progress to pairs of weapons and other weapons."

When I was training in fencing, we mad a point of doing plenty of spear and dagger as well as the sword in two hands and sword in one hand.
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Old 12-19-2018, 05:52 AM   #43
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Default Re: Spear vs Sword

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
You only need to reduce an item to 1/3 HP to reduce it to 1/2 effectiveness.
"At the GM's discretion". For a spear or other simple melee weapon, I'd not bother with that sort of fiddliness, unless it was a game all about very tactical duels and such, and not much else.
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Old 12-19-2018, 06:39 AM   #44
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Default Re: Spear vs Sword

It's safe to say that any tactics that rely on hacking a small tree to bits while somebody tries to kill you with it aren't the best. I don't see how the game fails to simulate more appropriate tactics:
  • Take a Move or Move and Attack maneuver to get right in the spearman's face – that is, in close combat (reach C), where neither of you is advantaged. A shield rush is really tempting, because you can do it unpenalized at full Move, it ends with you in close combat, and it has a really good chance of putting your foe on the ground, where he won't be able to do the step/retreat dance effectively for a couple of turns.

  • As you close, you'll probably be attacked, because the spearman – knowing he has the reach advantage – can just wait for you to come to him, and will likely take a Wait maneuver in game terms as well, hoping for a stop thrust.

  • Fortunately, you have a shield! It provides a DB that adds to all your defenses, representing how it gets in the way of the spear. Moreover, if you chose Move and Attack, and took a swing on your way in, you can use the shield to block, even though your weapon cannot parry.

  • Now you're in close combat, where the spearman who wants to retain his spear must step back to reach 1, where you can still hit him, and has no reach advantage. If he opts instead to take a Move to backpedal farther to regain his reach advantage . . . that's fine, because he isn't taking a Wait (like at the start) or an Attack, and you can move faster going forward, controlling the situation by staying in close.

  • Etc.
The spearman might gamble on being a better grappler, and ditch the spear and grab you. If he succeeds, that would suck, because the shield would put you at a disadvantage. But if he doesn't succeed, you've effectively "disarmed" him. (He could also be some sort of ninja master spearman who's good at armed grappling, Karate, and all the rest . . . but I hear those guys were rare in real life compared to conscripts with a pointed stick and a prayer.)

TL; DR: Your smart move as a sword-and-shield fighter is to press as closely as possible, up to and including close combat, and rely on your shield for defense. He who hesitates (perhaps out of fear of a stop thrust) is lost.
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Old 12-19-2018, 07:11 AM   #45
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Default Re: Spear vs Sword

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Originally Posted by martinl View Post

Why greatswords were competitive with pole arms is more of a mystery to me.
Greatswords were de facto polearms, but "polearms plus."

Like polearms, they could chop and spear effectively with the force of two hands, if at slightly less distance. The "plus" refers to the fact that they had a lot more sharpened length to use at a wider variety of ranges; were built with the possibility of close combat in mind, with an unsharpened ricasso for half-swording and a hefty pommel for braining people; and had crossguards, and sometimes side rings and Parierhaken, to protect the hands on the defense. This made them useful at virtually every range (polearms rapidly became a liability in close) and valuable defensive weapons (polearms relied on "don't let that guy get close" for defense). Moreover, they were all-metal and fairly difficult to break through misfortune (and rust works more slowly than rot).

Even so, "competitive" is relative. When we were researching GURPS Martial Arts (which is where I remember all of the above from), we never ran into any claims of users of such weapons making up more than 1/10 to 1/8 of a force, the rest being polearm and pike users. So they'd be outnumbered 7:1 to 9:1, which seems about right for a weapon GURPS claims costs 6-11 times as much as contemporary pikes and polearms.

Which brings us to the final point: Such weapons were costly, making them status symbols. That likely made them "competitive" for hearts and minds. Any mangy mercenary or cowering conscript might carry a pointed stick, but it took a real flash cat to tote an expensive sword, and a devoted career warrior to be any good with it (with great versatility comes the need for more extensive training). For these reasons, those writing and sketching about battles doubtless tended to exaggerate both the effectiveness and prevalence of such weapons.

Which said, you'll find greatswords awfully darned effective vs. polearms in GURPS. That ability to strike and parry every turn without having to choose which, be ready even after big, sweeping attacks, and move fluidly between reaches – and, if using optional rules from Martial Arts, parry lots of attackers and be deadly even in close – make it something of an Überwaffen. Which I suppose is how it should be, at $900 vs. $150 for a halberd.
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Old 12-19-2018, 07:32 AM   #46
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Default Re: Spear vs Sword

Armed Grapple is also a possibility with Spear or Staff. Alternatively, you can purchase Technique Mastery (Counterattack [Spear]) and Counterattack (Spear) at DX+4 to create a spear wielder that is better at Counterattack than Attack. If combined with Technique Mastery (Spinning Attack [Spear]) and Spinning Attack (Spear) at DX+4, you could have a spear wielder with Spear at 16 who does Spinning Counterattacks at an effective skill 24. If the defender possesses Form Mastery (Spear), Grip Mastery (Spear), and Reach Mastery (Spear), closer who charges in with a Move and Attack would be facing a Wait (Spinning Attack) at 20 and then a Retreat (Spinning Counterattack) at 24. The spear wield could stop thrust with Spear, parry with Staff, and Counterattack with Spear (usually leaving a dead swordsman in the process).
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Old 12-19-2018, 08:07 AM   #47
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Default Re: Spear vs Sword

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Armed Grapple is also a possibility with Spear or Staff. Alternatively, you can purchase Technique Mastery (Counterattack [Spear]) and Counterattack (Spear) at DX+4 to create a spear wielder that is better at Counterattack than Attack. If combined with Technique Mastery (Spinning Attack [Spear]) and Spinning Attack (Spear) at DX+4, you could have a spear wielder with Spear at 16 who does Spinning Counterattacks at an effective skill 24. If the defender possesses Form Mastery (Spear), Grip Mastery (Spear), and Reach Mastery (Spear), closer who charges in with a Move and Attack would be facing a Wait (Spinning Attack) at 20 and then a Retreat (Spinning Counterattack) at 24. The spear wield could stop thrust with Spear, parry with Staff, and Counterattack with Spear (usually leaving a dead swordsman in the process).
Wow that's quite the combo, so OK leaving aside the "TM on a TM" question (and actually if your GM says yes and you want to pay the points that's cool).


Spinning is at best a committed attack so no retreating and it gives you -3 to defend , or an AoA and so no retreating and no defence (MApg79)

And since your 2nd attack in that chain is a counter attack and that requires you to have made a successful defence, that means your going to potentially have issues stringing two together like that because the required defence is at -3 and no retreat bonus (although you get the staff parry bonus* for net -1**)

anyway 2x hard techniques +8 = 18 + 2x TM perks = 2 for total 20pts

which means if you are fighting an equally skilled swordsman your swordsmen opponent might well have brought a melee skill up which means that spinning attack QC is more of a risk and they'll be better at defending.

Pull it all off though and it will look cool!


*love that form mastery trick with spear/staff!

**you putting defensive grip in there as well to get an extra +1 parry?
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-19-2018 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 12-19-2018, 08:17 AM   #48
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Default Re: Spear vs Sword

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
It's safe to say that any tactics that rely on hacking a small tree to bits while somebody tries to kill you with it aren't the best. I don't see how the game fails to simulate more appropriate tactics:
  • Take a Move or Move and Attack maneuver to get right in the spearman's face – that is, in close combat (reach C), where neither of you is advantaged. A shield rush is really tempting, because you can do it unpenalized at full Move, it ends with you in close combat, and it has a really good chance of putting your foe on the ground, where he won't be able to do the step/retreat dance effectively for a couple of turns.

  • As you close, you'll probably be attacked, because the spearman – knowing he has the reach advantage – can just wait for you to come to him, and will likely take a Wait maneuver in game terms as well, hoping for a stop thrust.

  • Fortunately, you have a shield! It provides a DB that adds to all your defenses, representing how it gets in the way of the spear. Moreover, if you chose Move and Attack, and took a swing on your way in, you can use the shield to block, even though your weapon cannot parry.

  • Now you're in close combat, where the spearman who wants to retain his spear must step back to reach 1, where you can still hit him, and has no reach advantage. If he opts instead to take a Move to backpedal farther to regain his reach advantage . . . that's fine, because he isn't taking a Wait (like at the start) or an Attack, and you can move faster going forward, controlling the situation by staying in close.

  • Etc.
The spearman might gamble on being a better grappler, and ditch the spear and grab you. If he succeeds, that would suck, because the shield would put you at a disadvantage. But if he doesn't succeed, you've effectively "disarmed" him. (He could also be some sort of ninja master spearman who's good at armed grappling, Karate, and all the rest . . . but I hear those guys were rare in real life compared to conscripts with a pointed stick and a prayer.)

TL; DR: Your smart move as a sword-and-shield fighter is to press as closely as possible, up to and including close combat, and rely on your shield for defense. He who hesitates (perhaps out of fear of a stop thrust) is lost.

Nice!

Also couple of points spent on Reverse grip technique for the swordsman means that can get into CC and still stab.

And actually even at default once you get to Skill18 it's hardly worth spending points to buy past default (although the penalties for an unlucky failure are steep!)
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Old 12-19-2018, 08:18 AM   #49
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Default Re: Spear vs Sword

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Armed Grapple is also a possibility with Spear or Staff. Alternatively, you can purchase Technique Mastery (Counterattack [Spear]) and Counterattack (Spear) at DX+4 to create a spear wielder that is better at Counterattack than Attack. If combined with Technique Mastery (Spinning Attack [Spear]) and Spinning Attack (Spear) at DX+4, you could have a spear wielder with Spear at 16 who does Spinning Counterattacks at an effective skill 24. If the defender possesses Form Mastery (Spear), Grip Mastery (Spear), and Reach Mastery (Spear), closer who charges in with a Move and Attack would be facing a Wait (Spinning Attack) at 20 and then a Retreat (Spinning Counterattack) at 24. The spear wield could stop thrust with Spear, parry with Staff, and Counterattack with Spear (usually leaving a dead swordsman in the process).
Spinning Attacks are Committed or All-Out, so no retreats, and no parries if you tried your stop hit. That means no Counterattack.

Also, that's five combat perks, and thus a character with 21+ points in combat skills (assuming that 3+ of those perks are available through a style, and 'per x points' in MA means 'or fraction thereof', otherwise it takes 40+ points). Note that none of the styles in MA that use spears include more than two of these perks, meaning three would need to be purchased from the 'general' combat perk pool, and that means 51+ or 60+ points in combat skill.

In the best case we're still looking at a quite skilled spear fighter, and a similarly skilled sword-and-board fighter will have an equally nasty array of tricks.
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Old 12-19-2018, 08:22 AM   #50
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Default Re: Spear vs Sword

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Greatswords were de facto polearms, but "polearms plus."
To clarify, I was thinking military rather than civilian use, since a greatsword is not an acceptable civilian sidearm in most cultures I am aware of. In a duel it is an obviously superior weapon.

I agree with most of your points, but will focus on things I don't agree with for obvious reasons.
Quote:
Moreover, they were all-metal and fairly difficult to break through misfortune (and rust works more slowly than rot).
The rust thing may be true, but I thought really long swords of reasonable weight were tricky for durability. That comes through a little in the price, but if I was going to bet on the relative survivability in battle of a halberd vs a greatsword I'd bet halberd.
Quote:
Even so, "competitive" is relative. When we were researching GURPS Martial Arts (which is where I remember all of the above from), we never ran into any claims of users of such weapons making up more than 1/10 to 1/8 of a force, the rest being polearm and pike users. So they'd be outnumbered 7:1 to 9:1
... And now I think I understand.

In my understanding, heavy infantry battle is dominated by weapons that are optimized for tight ranks, and in this situation pikes and poles are better than greatswords. However, there is a place for folks who are optimized for ripping up exposed flanks or dominating when things descend into chaos. Greatswords would shine there. Keeping a few of them around expressly for that would make sense.

Quote:
it took a real flash cat to tote an expensive sword, and a devoted career warrior to be any good with it (with great versatility comes the need for more extensive training).
Where do mangy Scots with claymores fit into this? Is it just a sterotype from bad Hollywood movies?
Quote:
Which said, you'll find greatswords awfully darned effective vs. polearms in GURPS... make it something of an Überwaffen.
I think GURPS handles it even better than that. A trained formation of pikemen would own a formation of greatsword guys in GURPS, and in a chaotic scrum the opposite would be true, so it works the way I think it should.
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