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Old 03-29-2023, 10:50 AM   #21
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Now, personally, I think Reach C blades should use Brawling (which allows for 2H use natively anyway) and any Reach 1+ blade should use Broadsword one-handed and 2H Sword (which should probably be renamed Greatsword, but I digress) two-handed, but that once again gets into my beef with GURPS' combat skills and is rather off-topic, here.
Letting say a knife with a 6" blade use Brawling does not fit my experience at all. One of the biggest differences is that a prepared person can almost always take a punch, but any cut or thrust with a knife is potentially lethal. So dealing with knives requires a totally different mindset than dealing with punches and kicks.

I think its already canonical that some very short blades fixed to the hand, such as a ring of keys or a bagh nakh, use Brawling skill.

I don't know of any pre-20th-century martial art which presents boxing and knife fighting or knife defense as intimately linked the way most of them present knife defense and grappling and throws as intimately linked.
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Old 03-29-2023, 11:13 AM   #22
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
It would be silly to have two different sets of stats for using a Longsword with both hands on the grip: one from the Weapons Table under Two-Handed Sword, and the other from the Defensive Grip rules. That encourages players to cherrypick. I think the rules were designed to make it clear that if the weapon already has stats for two-handed use, you use those.
The way I'm thinking about it is that when you use a defensive grip on a sword that can be used one- or two-handed, it isn't the same as holding it with the standard two hands on the grip as in normal two-handed sword use. It is the 'choked-up' grip described in the paragraph above, and has all the effects described there. The wielder can use either broadsword skill or two-handed sword skill, because the weapon can be used with either. The difference between how defensive grip works on one- and two-handed weapons is less about the skill used, and more about the size of the weapon.

In the description of how defensive grip works for one-handed weapons, it also says "Treat the weapon as two-handed for all purposes." Based on that would someone using a dagger or short sword in a defensive grip also have to use two-handed sword skill at default from DX, since those skills don't have a default to two-handed sword?
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Old 03-29-2023, 12:50 PM   #23
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

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The way I'm thinking about it is that when you use a defensive grip on a sword that can be used one- or two-handed, it isn't the same as holding it with the standard two hands on the grip as in normal two-handed sword use. It is the 'choked-up' grip described in the paragraph above, and has all the effects described there. The wielder can use either broadsword skill or two-handed sword skill, because the weapon can be used with either. The difference between how defensive grip works on one- and two-handed weapons is less about the skill used, and more about the size of the weapon.

In the description of how defensive grip works for one-handed weapons, it also says "Treat the weapon as two-handed for all purposes." Based on that would someone using a dagger or short sword in a defensive grip also have to use two-handed sword skill at default from DX, since those skills don't have a default to two-handed sword?
I don't understand what you mean by "the 'choked-up' grip described in the paragraph above"

Per GURPS MA, Defensive Grip with a Longsword or any other weapon with a two-handed entry on the Weapons Table is one hand on the blade near the point, one hand on the handle. If both hands are on the handle, use the stats for that from the Weapons Table.

Defensive Grip with a Broadsword and any other weapon with only one-handed entries is both hands on the handle (or one hand supporting the other hand). There are no stats for this on the Weapons Table so they are based on the one-handed entry.
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Old 03-29-2023, 12:58 PM   #24
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
I don't understand what you mean by "the 'choked-up' grip described in the paragraph above"...
Choking up the grip is a terminology most commonly used in baseball.
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Old 03-29-2023, 01:31 PM   #25
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

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I don't understand what you mean by "the 'choked-up' grip described in the paragraph above"
The quote from Martial Arts on the defensive grip for a two-handed weapon is: "If using a two-handed weapon, Defensive Grip involves moving one hand forward to “choke” the weapon or grip it by the ricasso."

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Per GURPS MA, Defensive Grip with a Longsword or any other weapon with a two-handed entry on the Weapons Table is one hand on the blade near the point, one hand on the handle. If both hands are on the handle, use the stats for that from the Weapons Table.
Gripping "a sword of any kind" near the tip is described further down in that section. It is a distinct option from the two-handed weapon defensive grip.

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Defensive Grip with a Broadsword and any other weapon with only one-handed entries is both hands on the handle (or one hand supporting the other hand). There are no stats for this on the Weapons Table so they are based on the one-handed entry.
The description only mentions using a second hand, not where that hand is placed.

The fact that you can use a defensive grip on a short sword, knife, or even a broadsword with a skill usually used one-handed, without defaulting to a different, two-handed skill is the point I was making. It doesn't make sense that a character with broadsword skill has to use two-handed sword skill when using a bastard sword in a defensive grip. The reasonable conclusion is that the use of defensive grip is unconnected to the skill used.
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Old 03-29-2023, 08:26 PM   #26
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

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It doesn't make sense that a character with broadsword skill has to use two-handed sword skill when using a bastard sword in a defensive grip. T.
Why must this be true? The character has to use Two-handed Sword (even if defaulted from Broadsword) when using the Bastard Sword with his hands in a conventional grip.

You want a freebie? Having a Default from Broadsword _was_ the freebie. Otherwise the usual Gurps rule of "You get what you pay for and you don't get what you don't pay for." holds true.
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Old 03-29-2023, 09:32 PM   #27
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

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Why must this be true? The character has to use Two-handed Sword (even if defaulted from Broadsword) when using the Bastard Sword with his hands in a conventional grip.

You want a freebie? Having a Default from Broadsword _was_ the freebie. Otherwise the usual Gurps rule of "You get what you pay for and you don't get what you don't pay for." holds true.
But a character doesn’t normally have to use two-handed sword to use a bastard sword. It’s usable with broadsword skill. Every use of defensive grip uses two hands, even with skills that normally are one-handed, so just adding the second hand doesn’t automatically require the use of a two-handed skill. Why would one-handed skills be usable for defensive grips on knives, short swords, broadswords, cavalry sabers, etc., but not bastard swords?

I’m not seeing why using broadsword skill for defensive grip on a bastard sword is ‘getting a freebie.’ Defensive grip is an option that can be used with any melee weapon skill, and a bastard sword can be used with broadsword skill. It seems to me that not allowing a defensive grip using broadsword skill is more like not getting something you did pay for.

The rules in question describe the effects of using a defensive grip for one- and two-handed weapons, and note that weapons than can be used with one or two hands are treated as two-handed “for this purpose.” There is no mention of the skills to be used in the entire section. It is a perfectly reasonable reading of “for this purpose,” to refer just to the rules that were laid out in the previous paragraphs. Especially since the paragraph about one-handed weapons says to, “Treat the weapon as two-handed for all purposes,” and no one is arguing that you need a two-handed weapon skill to use one-handed weapons in a defensive grip.
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Old 03-29-2023, 09:46 PM   #28
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

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But a character doesn’t normally have to use two-handed sword to use a bastard sword. It’s usable with broadsword skill. Every use of defensive grip uses two hands, even with skills that normally are one-handed, so just adding the second hand doesn’t automatically require the use of a two-handed skill. Why would one-handed skills be usable for defensive grips on knives, short swords, broadswords, cavalry sabers, etc., but not bastard swords?

p.
He doesn't need to have Two-handed Sword to use a Bastard sword in one hand but he does to use it in two hands. Defensive Grip requires two hands and I wouldn't know what "Defensive Grip" used with a Knife was other than "sever my fingers please!". I'd disallow Defensive Grip on the other weapons you list too if I was the GM.
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Old 03-30-2023, 04:53 AM   #29
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
He doesn't need to have Two-handed Sword to use a Bastard sword in one hand but he does to use it in two hands. Defensive Grip requires two hands and I wouldn't know what "Defensive Grip" used with a Knife was other than "sever my fingers please!". I'd disallow Defensive Grip on the other weapons you list too if I was the GM.
Fair enough as a GM call, but that’s clearly not RAW. The rules say any melee weapon can be held in a defensive grip. You seem to only want to allow it on weapons that are normally used two-handed.

Otherwise, how do you account for the ability to use a defensive grip on a broadsword or cavalry saber using broadsword skill, but not on a bastard sword?
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Old 03-30-2023, 05:58 AM   #30
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

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Otherwise, how do you account for the ability to use a defensive grip on a broadsword or cavalry saber using broadsword skill, but not on a bastard sword?
This was my justification for being able to use Broadsword skill for a Defensive Grip with a katana as well (and using the "defensive grip for a one-handed weapon" rules), but I really do think you're meant to use Two-Handed Sword for normally one-handed swords when using a Defensive Grip, just as you need to use Broadsword to use a Greatsword in one hand, despite there being no entry on Broadsword for it. As I mentioned above, however, it seems like the Defensive Grip for one-handed weapons is really a completely different thing than the Defensive Grip for two-handers, and the two should probably be turned into different options...

This does introduce a problem in that, IIRC, there are specific notes of how a Defensive Grip lets you Parry flails and the like when using a fencing weapon, but there is no two-handed fencing skill (at least not as of Martial Arts; I think one of the Fantasy Tech volumes had a Katana skill that was Parry 0F and could be used one- and two-handed, for use with a specific Ethnic Cool version of the katana, and I believe the Zweihander in the same volume was a Parry 0F two-handed sword, although I forget if it had a specific fencing two-handed skill or if it just let you use Two-Handed Sword). I feel that part of the rules could use some clarification...
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