Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

[L.J.Steele]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

And?

As I, and multiple people have said, "That's why we play GURPS". We're okay with that reputation, with the game being a niche system in a media full of niche systems, and since a 4e release didn't change GURPS fundamentally, I strongly suspect so is SJGames.

I understand the desire to pull GURPS into the limelight, to maybe market it to appeal to a greater fanbase, but not to change it to appeal to those who wouldn't like it the way it is.
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My point is, all of GURPS complexity* is frontloaded, to fix this the GM or a genre author needs to do a lot of work; and all of GURPS deadliness is GMs not understanding that's completely in their hands to dial up or down as they please.


If I had millions of dollars to give to Steve and make requests for a new edition, the only changes would be to strip Magic from Basic† and include more direction on how to dial the settings into being the game the GM wants to run.

I pitched for 4E telescoping skill trees, particularly at higher tech levels. Trying to run a semi-competent engineer, or doctor, in a space setting, esp. if you add in aliens is an enormous amount of points that you'll likely never use.

Same with some of the complexity and expense of trying to build out characters that have minor powers for essentially flavor. (Psi is terrible at that, I found myself fighting the rules system constantly to build various concepts)

Make the assumptions in Magic/Psi/Powers explicit, especially when something is being made deliberately hard/expensive for game balance concerns.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by L.J.Steele

Same with some of the complexity and expense of trying to build out characters that have minor powers for essentially flavor. (Psi is terrible at that, I found myself fighting the rules system constantly to build various concepts)

I'm curious here, because GURPS basic Advantages seem well-adjusted to this.

It gets harder if you're using a fancy derivation of the Powers framework on top of that and have decided there need to be power skills or talents or whatever.

[Outlaw]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

And?

As I, and multiple people have said, "That's why we play GURPS". We're okay with that reputation, with the game being a niche system in a media full of niche systems, and since a 4e release didn't change GURPS fundamentally, I strongly suspect so is SJGames.

I totally agree. I never said change anything in the game. I love the game the way it is.

As embarrassing as it is to say, it just kind of clicked in my head a day or so ago that D&D is simply cinematic at its core and that's what people want. My thought has always been, "if they only knew that GURPS was out there everything would be different" b/c that's the way it was for me in 1986. It was like having a blindfold removed and seeing a pie of pure awesomeness covered with whipped awesome. Sadly, that's not the case for very many people.

As I've thought about it more throughout this thread I agree with your suspicion. Not necessarily that SJ Games is OK with GURPS being where it is, but probably decided at a business level that, for whatever reasons (capital, talent, risk, etc), where it is is where it stays for now.

It sure would be nice to see some form of a GURPS Starter Set on book store shelves though. If I ever win a smigleytillion dollar lottery that's what I would fund if SJ Games would be up for it.

[kenclary]

Originally Posted by Outlaw

As embarrassing as it is to say, it just kind of clicked in my head a day or so ago that D&D is simply cinematic at its core and that's what people want.

People's taste in just D&D is hugely varied. Its success really is a matter of market history (the very name is synonomous with the hobby) and fame. More recently, it's also leaned into accessibility.

[kenclary]

Originally Posted by L.J.Steele

Trying to run a semi-competent engineer, or doctor, in a space setting, esp. if you add in aliens is an enormous amount of points that you'll likely never use.

I played a very competent scifi space doctor on a 125 point budget. The meat of the space doctor build was IQ 14 (80) and Physician 20 (28), and a handful of single points in alien specialties for Physiology. The defaulting rules work wonders. (There were also a normal amount of advantages, disadvantages, other attributes, and a pile of single-point skills...). Very functional and fairly cheap.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Also, for mild negotiations sake, I think the basic set would have been better off with Magic as Powers instead of the 'legacy' magic.

I'd prefer them to go the other way, and provide a highly customizable “supernatural skills” system that could, among other things, produce something resembling the standard Magic system, and where “balance” is handled primarily through activation times, energy costs, skill penalties, required margins of success, and the like, instead of “how many points you've dumped into which Advantages” — although I'd allow something like that as an option, too, letting you build something resembling 3e's Psionics.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

I'd prefer them to go the other way, and provide a highly customizable “supernatural skills” system that could, among other things, produce something resembling the standard Magic system, and where “balance” is handled primarily through activation times, energy costs, skill penalties, required margins of success, and the like, instead of “how many points you've dumped into which Advantages” — although I'd allow something like that as an option, too, letting you build something resembling 3e's Psionics.

That's still pretty much a powers system, it's just a different powers system. The main problem is that passive abilities (such as damage resistance) are hard to implement as skills.

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by Outlaw

As embarrassing as it is to say, it just kind of clicked in my head a day or so ago that D&D is simply cinematic at its core and that's what people want. My thought has always been, "if they only knew that GURPS was out there everything would be different" b/c that's the way it was for me in 1986. It was like having a blindfold removed and seeing a pie of pure awesomeness covered with whipped awesome. Sadly, that's not the case for very many people.

Eh, don't fret. You've just done a very human thing. Because we're among those "very many people."

Case in point: take me. There are three hobbies that I've been soaked in long before I discovered gaming, and I've been gaming for 45 years now.

I happen to think that hockey is the greatest of sports (with soccer not too far behind). If you only knew how awesome hockey was, you wouldn't bother with sports like NASCAR or basketball or baseball.

I happen to think that choral singing -- particularly of Baroque, shape note and early music -- is the greatest of art forms. Never mind modern pop, or rap (hiss), or C&W (hiss), you wouldn't bother with those if you just knew how awesome Baroque is.

I'm also a lifelong camper, and there's nothing like lounging around in a peaceful forest in a tent, hearing nothing but the wind and the birds and a nearby flowing stream.

How many of you share those hobbies? Would you really listen to Monteverdi or Byrd or Lully, and not understand why anyone would want to listen to Travis or Williams or McIntyre instead?

GURPS is a niche preference, sure. But that's okay. We're here on this forum in the first place because we share it, and likely prefer it to other games. It doesn't bother me that more people prefer D&D to it, just like it doesn't bother me that there are more country & western fans than there are early music fans, or that more people are into basketball than are into hockey, or that there are more people who prefer to spend their Sundays at a church than at a campground.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Anthony

That's still pretty much a powers system, it's just a different powers system. The main problem is that passive abilities (such as damage resistance) are hard to implement as skills.

I don't really see that as a problem; I'm fine with a skill-based powers system that deals primarily with active abilities, supplemented by a few advantages that represent passive abilities. But if you want to implement passive abilities within a skill-based system, you can take a cue from the likes of Recover Energy (which you never roll against, but instead gives you an improved recovery rate based on your skill level).

But like I said, I'm not attempting to be a purist and say that all powers should be skill-based; I would actually prefer that Recover Energy be reworked as an Advantage, due to it being a passive ability. But I do not like the idea of GURPS becoming more Champions-like and mandating that all superhuman abilities be turned into Advantages.

It's one of the aspects of GURPS's complexity that I like: it doesn't insist that every problem be solved the same way. Sometimes it makes more sense to use Advantages rather than Skills: other times it's the other way around.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

But like I said, I'm not attempting to be a purist and say that all powers should be skill-based; I would actually prefer that Recover Energy be reworked as an Advantage, due to it being a passive ability. But I do not like the idea of GURPS becoming more Champions-like and mandating that all superhuman abilities be turned into Advantages.

If you can do the same thing in two different ways, you introduce an optimization breakpoint where one of those ways is either always superior, or is superior in particular builds, and choosing things to do things in the non-preferred manner is willfully crippling yourself. This is why tech vs spells vs powers is such a balance mess -- it's because GURPS has competing systems for doing the same thing.

I'm fine with things being skills or spells instead of advantages. I just don't want to see the same ability show up in two categories.