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Old 12-28-2011, 11:01 PM   #31
Gef
 
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Trachmyr View Post
The second is what happens when you fall down?
There's a few ways to go here:

1) Immovable Stance, so you don't fall down. Archetypally brickish.
2) Acrobatic Stand, so you bounce back up. Not brickish.
3) Fight while your down, with Ground Fighting. Problem is, you're no longer protecting the squishy.
4) Fight while standing back up, with Low Fighting. It's a cheaper technique, too. Going from prone to kneeling counts as a step, so you can do it as soon as your turn arrives. Surviving 'till then is what you have the Extra Hit Points for (or Ablative DR*).
5) Extra Attacks, which you can trade for extra steps, so you can go from prone to standing in a turn.

*Not sure it's been discussed in this thread, but Ablative DR as an alternative to HP has one thing to recommend it: As the DR is whittled away, it causes no shock, stun, crippling, etc. However, against an attack which bypasses DR, it doesn't act like extra hit points. Kromm has suggested a Vitality Reserve, which are to Hit Points as an Energy Reserve is to Fatigue Points.

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Old 12-29-2011, 01:56 AM   #32
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
While Martial Art and then Low-Tech clearly list polearms used with Staff skill on their weapon tables and explicitly give Parry 0.

The RAW is that polearms don't get this bonus, at all. I argued for a +1 bonus in the playtest of LT and it was not perceived as unrealistic by the authors, as I recall, but ultimately, it was not included. It is possible that a desire not to contract Martial Arts played some part here.
Actually, things aren't exactly clear-cut. E.g. Main-Gauche gives a 0F parry to all weapons that are normally used with Knife, but we don't have this 0F listed with the normally -1 knives.

This is less a defence of the +2 Staff bonus and more a rant about how things are ambiguous.
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Old 12-29-2011, 02:03 AM   #33
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Gef View Post
There's a few ways to go here:

1) Immovable Stance, so you don't fall down. Archetypally brickish.
2) Acrobatic Stand, so you bounce back up. Not brickish.
3) Fight while your down, with Ground Fighting. Problem is, you're no longer protecting the squishy.
4) Fight while standing back up, with Low Fighting. It's a cheaper technique, too. Going from prone to kneeling counts as a step, so you can do it as soon as your turn arrives. Surviving 'till then is what you have the Extra Hit Points for (or Ablative DR*).
5) Extra Attacks, which you can trade for extra steps, so you can go from prone to standing in a turn.

*Not sure it's been discussed in this thread, but Ablative DR as an alternative to HP has one thing to recommend it: As the DR is whittled away, it causes no shock, stun, crippling, etc. However, against an attack which bypasses DR, it doesn't act like extra hit points. Kromm has suggested a Vitality Reserve, which are to Hit Points as an Energy Reserve is to Fatigue Points.

GEF
Excellent consideration. I'll look into which ones are better for which tanks.
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Old 12-29-2011, 02:18 AM   #34
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
A weapon mix not discussed yet is Flail (Morningstar) and shield. You effectively give up 1 pt of skill for it beign a Hard Skill yet inflict a -2 to block,a -4 to Parry and screw everyone trying to Fence with less than an Edgeed Rapier by doing so. That's a very bread and butter thing to be doing on every attack.
Useful for a solo character, but not so much for the defender of squishy ones.

A Flail fails in the following areas:
Parrying enemy attacks (for the squishy), providing disruption (cannot sweep, not good at disarming, not good at slamming, not very versatile, cannot hook). A Flail+Shield tank is essentially a Shield Tank with a bit more flavourful offence, and less incentive to draw aggression.

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Speaking of penalties on every round, max out Counterattack. That's another -2 to Defense Rolls with no penalty to Skill as for Deceptive Attack.
I considered it, but given the number of other Techniques, it seems like it will not be affordable. It is neat after parrying for your squishy.

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Then to compensate for the lack of a damage multiplier after penetration you max out Targeted Attacki(Skull). For a -3 that is x4 after armor on every hit.
Again, cool, but expensive.
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Old 12-29-2011, 02:54 AM   #35
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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For people with long memories the name of this character was Nyx the Barbarian and once you got into melee range she was definitely the primnary target even in the presence of a mage like Aldehar the Incendiary. Ignore her to get o him and she'll kill you and your buddies too.
Ah. Good times.
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Old 12-29-2011, 09:29 AM   #36
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Useful for a solo character, but not so much for the defender of squishy ones.

A Flail fails in the following areas:
Parrying enemy attacks (for the squishy), providing disruption (cannot sweep, not good at disarming, not good at slamming, not very versatile, cannot hook). A Flail+Shield tank is essentially a Shield Tank with a bit more flavourful offence, and less incentive to draw aggression.

.
I'm afraid you and Anthony do not understand the principle of "The Best Defense is a Good Offence".

Killing one of your enemies (or even just making him fail a Consciousness roll) is better than Parrying his attacks, Sweeping him, Disarming him, Slamming him, Hooking him or several other diversionary tactics _all rolled into one_..

The best way to conduct a fight is to end it as soon as possible. That requires successful offence. Dead (as opposed to undead) enemires threaten no "squishies". You want to draw enemies to fight you? Make yourself the biggest threat to their own immediate survival.

Besides, Aldehar managed a perfectly good defense on his own with the Blink Spell as well as having some really rather affordable magic DR. Gurps does not naturally have defensive fighters who somehow draw "aggression" and there's no real reason it should have "squishies" either.
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Old 12-29-2011, 09:36 AM   #37
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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Possibly because it's not relevant to actual tanking. The fundamental feature of a tank is that it's a character who's dangerous to ignore, and yet too tough to easily eliminate. Being dangerous in a straight up fight is nice, but incidental, because it means you aren't being ignored. A flail is not a good weapon for that role -- its advantages don't apply when you're being ignored (since being ignored generally means you're being offered flank or back shots that aren't really subject to parry, block, or shields), it reduces your durability (due to a poor parry, and being unbalanced), and its damage is unexceptional (due to crushing).

.
If you opponents wish to commit suicide by ignoring a serious threat in melee range then that's another way to solve the problem.

The best way to make sure your fighter isn't ignored is to have him kill anyone who does that.
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Old 12-29-2011, 09:47 AM   #38
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

Without any question, the best 'tank' in my fantasy game is also the best damage dealer.

He's a big, strong warrior wearing light, but highly magical dragonscale armour and wielding a two-handed claymore that can cut through steel like butter. Hopped up on all the right potions, he does up to 6d+18(2) cut or 3d+14(3) imp and can easily make five attacks per turn. His Parry is, I think, around 23 or so and he has DR 15+. HP 23 and Injury Tolerance: Damage Reduction 2. He has always worn a Ring of Jumping and has recently added Boots of Dragonflight to that, so he can easily shift his position on the battlefield if he has to.

He has Teamwork, but not Sacrifical Parry.

Most of the time, enemies tend to be forced to deal with him, even if they'd rather get to squishy casters behind him. After all, would you want him attacking your back or flanks?
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Old 12-29-2011, 10:25 AM   #39
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I'm afraid you and Anthony do not understand the principle of "The Best Defense is a Good Offence".

Killing one of your enemies (or even just making him fail a Consciousness roll) is better than Parrying his attacks, Sweeping him, Disarming him, Slamming him, Hooking him or several other diversionary tactics _all rolled into one_..
This certainly is a very viable tactic. When you can do it easily.

But if it takes about 5-10 attacks by your primary damage dealer to kill the enemy, but only 1-2 attacks by the designated tank to disable said enemy (even temporarily), while the enemy has enough damage-dealing ability to kill your squishy wizard or the like in 1-2 attacks, dedicated tanking becomes important. Passive tanking is also important when you can't kill every enemy damage-dealer before they reach your squishy.

There are many situations where a dedicated tank is unnecessary in favour in several tanky DPS characters and possibly an offtank. These situations would be commonly described as 'PVP' (combat with other Adventurers).

The purpose of the thread is exploring and cataloguing advice for tanks for situations where the tank is needed. Though differentiating situations where tanking is or isn't needed might be helpful.
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Old 12-29-2011, 10:59 AM   #40
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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This certainly is a very viable tactic. When you can do it easily.

But if it takes about 5-10 attacks by your primary damage dealer to kill the enemy, but only 1-2 attacks by the designated tank to disable said enemy (even temporarily), .
5-10 attacks is "roll until you score Critical Hit territory". Any melee fighter ought to be able to down an opponent on that time scale or he's a "squishie" himself. You'd only last 10 rounds against my Flail specialist by having a Level Boss's Dodge score. That's the whole pont of nuking the opponent's Parry.

Then there's the question of "Why do you think it's easier to score with a disabling attack than a damaging one?". It seldom is. There are usually relatively normal Active Defenses and/or Contests v. all these trick attacks. None of them is a free win. Usualy, when you score with one of them you could have done damage instead.

A simple ST 17 with M0orningstar is 3D+2. That penetrates basic Plate with a Major Wound even just to the Torso. My faceless hordes of squishy-hunters seldom wear Plate anyway and even Chain is only DR2 v. Cr. So it's more likely 10 pts of penetrating damage. Skull damge is much worse even if you give the enemy a DR4 pot Helm and a 2 pt Skull.

Then you start adding in Weapon Master and magic and things get much harsher and very rapidly too.

I don't know if some of you out there are tryign to build defensive "tanks" because you only give your fightrers ST12 or what but that is not the way to do things.
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