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Old 09-17-2018, 07:40 PM   #11
Icelander
 
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Default Re: Body Armor level DR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I just now checked Campaigns and HT to be sure and I didn't see any result that would do the job.

Neither "DR protects at 50%" nor triple damage will get a pistol round rated for 1D P- though what should have been a DR 30 vest.

You'd need at last a "bypass all armor" (which result does not exist) followed by hitting the Vitals on a 1-in-6 folowed by rolling a 6 on the 1D6 damge with a failed HT roll for either the Major Wound or on passing zero and a final "bled out before the ambulance could get there".
Eh, sure.

I generally treat the rigid inserts as protecting only a 4/6 of the Chest, at most, as the coverage is even less than the vest itself.
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Old 09-17-2018, 08:00 PM   #12
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Default Re: Body Armor level DR

For inserts, the actual covered area is about 25% of the torso, but concentrated in areas that are more important and more commonly hit.
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Old 09-17-2018, 08:04 PM   #13
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Default Re: Body Armor level DR

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For inserts, the actual covered area is about 25% of the torso, but concentrated in areas that are more important and more commonly hit.
Yeah, hence the 4/6 for typical SWAT gear, but generally 3/6 for inserts in 'concealable' vests.

I'd allow 5/6 of the front Chest for well-fitted tactical gear of good design.
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Last edited by Icelander; 09-17-2018 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 09-17-2018, 08:19 PM   #14
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Default Re: Body Armor level DR

I'm very fond of Armor-as-Dice (Pyramid #34) since it gives results more in-line what the OP would expect.
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Old 09-18-2018, 12:11 AM   #15
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Default Re: Body Armor level DR

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Uh huh. I know of an incident c. 1990 where a SWAT team member in a full assault vest was killed by a single hit from a .25 ACP. It went in the arm hole and right to the heart. Gurps doesn't really cover that yet it's the sort of thing that happens in the real world.
That to me sounds like a job for the armour gaps rules in LT and armpit gap in armour load outs. (Pyramid 3/57 also references this kind of attack as does TS) Not sure how to do them randomly though.

Also I'm guessing in reality a big factor here is angle of attack. As stated Bullet vest etc are very concentrated on frontal attacks. GURPS doesn't really do this. If nothing else it people don't just stand or crouch statically presenting the same facing to the same hex ranges so it tricky to implement. The variable damage kind of covers this (but as you say doesn't help you in this situation of .25 vs. assault vest*). So maybe a way to do it is have a different coverage range for hits from different angles. So for instance a vest might be 5 in 6 from the front, but 4 in 6 from the side. You might nee do factor the plates in separately especially if you are or aren't using the side plates.

Fiddly though!

Another way round it is to have replace an entry on the critical hit table to be something like:

"triple damage or normal damage and no DR if triple damage isn't enough to penetrate DR".


Which I quite like, might look at swapping some other results out for either/or ones!


*you'd need what to miss the plates, just go against the vest DR 12 get a good enough crit result to do that and get the 1 in 6 vitals result!
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:46 AM   #16
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Default Re: Body Armor level DR

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Also I'm guessing in reality a big factor here is angle of attack. As stated Bullet vest etc are very concentrated on frontal attacks. GURPS doesn't really do this. If nothing else it people don't just stand or crouch statically presenting the same facing to the same hex ranges so it tricky to implement.
The introduction of vests as standard issue to field troops has resulted in changing the way soldiers are trained to use their rifles. The standard stance for rifle shooting used to present the 'weak' side at about a 45-degree angle, giving good stable footing and presenting a narrow target. However, this angle also exposes the thin (or non-existent) side armour of a vest and reduces the value of any plates to almost nil. Thus today the favoured stance is one that presents the front of the shooter, square on to the threat, gaining maximal coverage from the plates and vest's front at the expense of some stability for the weapon.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:20 AM   #17
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Default Re: Body Armor level DR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I know of an incident c. 1990 where a SWAT team member in a full assault vest was killed by a single hit from a .25 ACP. It went in the arm hole and right to the heart. Gurps doesn't really cover that yet it's the sort of thing that happens in the real world.
See Low Tech page 101 "Harsh Realism- Armor Gaps." High-tech armour has just the same limitations, just like with low-tech armour it is up to the GM how many fiddly details to represent.
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Old 09-18-2018, 06:23 AM   #18
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Default Re: Body Armor level DR

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
The introduction of vests as standard issue to field troops has resulted in changing the way soldiers are trained to use their rifles. The standard stance for rifle shooting used to present the 'weak' side at about a 45-degree angle, giving good stable footing and presenting a narrow target. However, this angle also exposes the thin (or non-existent) side armour of a vest and reduces the value of any plates to almost nil. Thus today the favoured stance is one that presents the front of the shooter, square on to the threat, gaining maximal coverage from the plates and vest's front at the expense of some stability for the weapon.
True, but in an ongoing firefight I'm guessing it's going to be hard to reliably square yourself on to every bullet coming at you! Also as you move about in combat it going to be hard to maintain that square on facing against them.

If I was going to to that level of detail I might allow a 1 pt perk:

"keep square on / point towards enemy" that increases a the coverage range of Plates by +1 for shots from enemy who you know where they are (but you can only choose enemies in one arc at a time to get this benefit from).




AFAIK it's never explicitly stated what Torso (side) means for those side insert plates mentioned in Pyramid. I assume they only protect from attacks from the side facing? If so what are the implications for the ordinary Trauma plates that just have 'Torso' as a location? Would they be Torso (front) and only protect from the front facing?
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-18-2018 at 11:44 PM.
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