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Old 05-23-2019, 02:49 AM   #1
FeiLin
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Player knowledge and hidden rolls

I have this habit of preferring to keeping many rolls hidden from the players and describe the outcomes instead, but I want to know how other people view it. I would like to "decentralise dice rolling", in a way that makes it easier for me and doesn't burden players with too much information to ignore (actively or passively).

The example I had in mind at this point is making maps. Should the GM or the players roll? If I were GM I'd probably just roll not even tell them anything (it would be hard to put it in context while drawing, is my thought), and when finished say something about if it would give a bonus or a penalty to Navigation (but the actual value not until rolling, if the players do so). If the players roll against Cartography, they would know if it's a good or bad map, and that doesn't feel psychologically right, since people are often blind to their own work and also while standing in the area they just drew it may not be obvious.

Navigation is another example. Should the players really know when their characters are lost? If they're good roleplayers, I guess it's alright, but even then it may be better with blissful ignorance. What if it's crucial to their actions, such as patrolling a border but may not cross it (and especially not fire their weapons in enemy territory!). Would you make an exception and roll when it's critical?

What guidelines do you have for GM/player rolls? General or specific.
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Old 05-23-2019, 06:28 AM   #2
Gumby Bush
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Default Re: Player knowledge and hidden rolls

DF recommends having a player actually map, then rolling secretly against Cartography to remedy any mistakes. It's an information roll, which is, by default, secret in GURPS.
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Old 05-23-2019, 07:28 AM   #3
Stormcrow
 
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Default Re: Player knowledge and hidden rolls

Make a hidden roll whenever knowing the outcome of the roll would give players information their characters wouldn't have. If someone fails their Stealth roll, they think they're being quiet; the guard they're sneaking up on might not have heard them or might have heard them and is preparing an ambush.

Most players otherwise prefer to do all their own rolling. Some people feel like this empowers them. Personally, I don't care: letting the GM roll things for me that aren't secret is no different than playing a computer game where the computer determines the outcomes of my actions without showing me the random numbers it found to determine them. I'd be perfectly happy as a player letting the GM roll everything, so long as I trusted that GM to fairly apply my character's traits. Tossing plastic cubes does not especially excite me. But I'm not typical; most players consider the dice-throwing ritual to be sacred.

But when you do take on hidden rolls, avoid the temptation to roll for things you don't have to. If you already know whether an NPC is going to cooperate with a PC or that a guard is asleep, don't waste time rolling. And if you feel you are better qualified than some dice to determine an outcome, do so. Don't be a slave to the dice.
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Old 05-23-2019, 08:22 AM   #4
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Player knowledge and hidden rolls

I tend to roll when unneeded to hide when I roll when needed (usually followed by 'interesting' or 'that's too bad'), so players never know what I am up to.
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Old 05-23-2019, 10:09 AM   #5
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Default Re: Player knowledge and hidden rolls

Personally, I avoid secret rolls. Most of the time, my secret rolls involve the atmosphere (NPCs’ reactions, event triggers, weather and so on). It

Most of the rolls in my campaigns are PC centered, contests are open (e.g. they can see enemy rolls during combat) and if I require it, I apply (secret) penalties to their rolls (I tell them they roll at disadvantage).

As far as I have experienced, when I let the players roll or when players look at my rolls, they get more involved with the game and the rules.

The flow chart idea is amusing, but I think it could be dissuasive if it starts looking like “an expansion” (it happened in my groups). I also agree with the fact there are players which regard dice rolling as sacred.
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Old 05-23-2019, 10:42 AM   #6
kdtipa
 
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Default Re: Player knowledge and hidden rolls

Navigation is an interesting example. Most of the time in my campaigns navigation has never been the crucial skill that will affect how the story goes. For me it's usually...
Me (GM): "You're off in the woods among mountains, and the last time you saw a road was a while ago. Make a navigation roll to see if you can get your bearings and get back to a close by road."
Player: "I made my roll by 4."
Me (GM): "Alright... you pick your landmarks and keep your group on a straight path long enough and in a direction you're pretty sure is where you came from, and after four hours of walking, you find yourself on the edge of the road. It being more familiar to you, and knowing how far away the mountains are from town, you think it's another five hours of walking to get to town."
No part of that is really about the journey. I don't need to hide the roll because we're not role-playing the part where they are walking toward the road. But in your example of patrolling a border... I can see why it might be fun to roll the die in secret and not tell the player how successful they are.

I think my recommendation then is to decide case by case.
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Old 05-23-2019, 10:50 AM   #7
johndallman
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Default Re: Player knowledge and hidden rolls

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
Navigation is another example. Should the players really know when their characters are lost? If they're good roleplayers, I guess it's alright, but even then it may be better with blissful ignorance. What if it's crucial to their actions, such as patrolling a border but may not cross it (and especially not fire their weapons in enemy territory!). Would you make an exception and roll when it's critical?
From plentiful experience of getting lost, you think you're fine, then you become suspicious, then you know for sure that you're lost. I'm generally happy for my players to roll, since they play it fine, when they do get lost. We tend towards lots of Navigation skill, after the Incident Over Prague.
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Old 05-23-2019, 12:18 PM   #8
Stormcrow
 
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Default Re: Player knowledge and hidden rolls

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I tend to roll when unneeded to hide when I roll when needed (usually followed by 'interesting' or 'that's too bad'), so players never know what I am up to.
Yes, but you're not really running the rules through your head as you do it; the rolling is just for show.

But for most hidden rolls of the kind we're talking about it's no secret what you're rolling, only what result you get. If a character decides to use Stealth and the GM rolls secretly, the player knows the GM is making a Stealth roll on behalf of the character.

It's only for "did you notice this thing you don't know anything about yet" rolls that you roll secretly without the players knowing what you're doing, and I prefer to minimize those sorts of rolls. I don't do a lot of passive checks with Perception; I generally assume that if something is out in the open the characters will see it if at all possible. Otherwise it's like they're stumbling around in the dark. "Sorry, you failed to notice the deadly laser beam security grid blocking the door..."

And when obstacles and hazards are actively trying to avoid being seen, I usually prefigure their success anyway. About the only time I need to roll secretly for something the players don't know about is when I'm improvising something actively hiding from them. And in that case I usually just decide whether the hiding is successful or not, rather than leave it to chance.
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Old 05-23-2019, 12:37 PM   #9
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Default Re: Player knowledge and hidden rolls

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I tend to roll when unneeded to hide when I roll when needed (usually followed by 'interesting' or 'that's too bad'), so players never know what I am up to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
Yes, but you're not really running the rules through your head as you do it; the rolling is just for show.
Well, I make constant rolls while GMing. If I'm wondering if the opposition patrol leader did X or Y, I might roll against a guesstimated weighed average of his Tactics and Intelligence Analysis, as well as the Soldier of his troops (with Leadership maybe providing a slight impact). I won't even do a full calculation in my head, just decide "yeah, they're seasoned veterans led by a good officers, I'll roll against 15' and then make a decision about the quality of the campsite, defences and preparations based on margin of success.

For things that aren't necessarily decisions by NPCs, I roll 'Reaction Rolls' for how lucky or unlucky the PCs are, with an arbitrary modifier for any choices they might have made that affect it, and then interpret the results on some arbitrary scale of possibilities I can see applying. All very much based on my feel, but it also ends up having effects in the game world.

I try never to just decide what happens. I guesstimate possibilities, use dice to determine approximately where on that scale things fall and then present scenarios using full GURPS rules for the players to deal with.
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Old 05-23-2019, 12:45 PM   #10
RyanW
 
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Default Re: Player knowledge and hidden rolls

I usually GM with my laptop open in place of books/screen. It's trivial to have a dice program or website open and "roll dice" at a tap.
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