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Old 05-20-2019, 06:44 AM   #1
Mavelic
 
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Default Social interaction more combat like ?

Hi,
Are there rules somewhere to make social interactions more interesting than a simple contest roll, a bit like a fight, with several phases between the protagonists (eg introduction, negotiation, conclusion)?
Thanks in advance for you advices, experiences and comments.
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Old 05-20-2019, 07:02 AM   #2
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Social interaction more combat like ?

Social Engineering generally adds a lot of interesting detail to the topic of social interaction, but it is deliberately not made to be samey with combat:

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
[ . . . ] we didn't overlook "social combat," but consciously chose a different approach that fit better with the rest of the game. Other reviews have missed our intent . . . The fact is that we didn't want "social combat" because we didn't think it was good rules model. Our goal was to show the GM how to use the existing mechanics to shift the campaign focus onto social matters [ . . . ]
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Old 05-20-2019, 08:06 AM   #3
Mavelic
 
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Default Re: Social interaction more combat like ?

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Social Engineering generally adds a lot of interesting detail to the topic of social interaction, but it is deliberately not made to be samey with combat:
Ah ! Thanks, i didn't think about this way to explore. Another book to buy (it begins to be costy)...
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Old 05-20-2019, 08:54 AM   #4
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Default Re: Social interaction more combat like ?

You can make social combat from scratch:
Social HP (Will perhaps? Or better between Will (stubborness in your beliefs) or IQ (argument rationalization and etc.)), Social Damage (thr damage based off IQ?), duplicate standart combat maneuvers into new social maneuvers.
Handle use of proofed arguments, blackmail, leverages or offered favors as one time sw damage (or as roll to get that much of ablative Social DR till end of scene?)
Social Dodge is (IQ/2) 3 (round down). Social Parry is (used social skill/2) 3.
At less than 1/3 of Social HP — you halves your Social Dodge Social Parry.
At 0 Social HP or less — you close to concede opponent point, and need to make a Will roll to act normally.
At -1*SHP — you immediately concede opponent point.
You recovering 1 Social HP per day.
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:15 AM   #5
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Default Re: Social interaction more combat like ?

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Originally Posted by Paydalanw View Post
You can make social combat from scratch:
Social HP (Will perhaps? Or better between Will (stubborness in your beliefs) or IQ (argument rationalization and etc.)), Social Damage (thr damage based off IQ?), duplicate standart combat maneuvers into new social maneuvers.
Handle use of proofed arguments, blackmail, leverages or offered favors as one time sw damage (or as roll to get that much of ablative Social DR till end of scene?)
Social Dodge is (IQ/2) 3 (round down). Social Parry is (used social skill/2) 3.
At less than 1/3 of Social HP — you halves your Social Dodge Social Parry.
At 0 Social HP or less — you close to concede opponent point, and need to make a Will roll to act normally.
At -1*SHP — you immediately concede opponent point.
You recovering 1 Social HP per day.
At vicky pointed out, one of the things I specifically set out to do in Social Engineering was to avoid anything like that model.

In the first place, GURPS already has rules for social interaction that work quite differently.

In the second place, the logical outcome of combat moves is that the other person is dead, unconscious, or running away in fear. But the logical outcome of social interaction is often that you and the other person are seeing things the same way, or cooperating in doing something. It's been said, for example, that an ideal end for a mercantile transaction is that each party goes away thinking, "Wow, I got a really great deal out of them!"

In the third place, and most importantly, a narrative of a "hit points" analogy would be that you try to persuade the other person to do what you want, and you don't succeed. So you try again, and again, and eventually you wear down their resistance. The person you desire agrees to sleep with you; the customer agrees to buy; the citizen agrees to vote for you. But, in reality, that sort of repeated "persuasion" is quite as likely to get the other person's back up and harden their resistance. It's been said that for many interactions, the decision to say yes or no is made in the first few seconds, and trying to change a No to a Yes may just make the person doing so look like a jerk; it can be better to accept the No and move on. So I don't think a set of rules that assumes laying siege to the other person is all that good a model.

That's not to say you can't do it. But my own feeling is that the existing GURPS rules provided at least the start for a more generally applicable model.
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Old 05-20-2019, 12:23 PM   #6
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Default Re: Social interaction more combat like ?

For establishing social dominance we usually use a single roll because most social interaction is longer than a step in a combat but pretty decisive. Once you show a merchant you have market savvy he's not going to waste his time haggling copper pieces out of you. When you pull back your longcoat to show off the submachinegun strapped to your side and lower your voice an octave as you say "I've got my security pass right here" the security guard isn't going to debate you about how intimidated he is. The Bar Wench knows if she's going to sleep with you before you reach the end of your clever flirting.

The exception I make for dramatic purposes is when you're in a contested social roll to affect a third party, like in a courtroom. In that case I set a margin number usually based on the number of persons that have to be convinced and the gravity of the debate and have both parties roll contested skills, winning by a margins that accumulate towards reaching that margin number.
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Old 05-20-2019, 12:53 PM   #7
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Social interaction more combat like ?

There is one game which has social interaction that was like combat and that's Maid RPG. But Maid's dial goes from harem action comedy to telenovela with horror elements. Victory in a social duel consisted of of making your opponent collapse in a facefault, faint or a helpless crying mess. Actually persuading anyone of anything or getting them to like you had very different mechanics.
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Old 05-21-2019, 06:11 AM   #8
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Default Re: Social interaction more combat like ?

I'm in agreement with Social Engineering's overall philosophy. That said, I think something interesting and useful could be devised using Martial Arts: Technical Grappling as a starting point, but translating physical stats like ST and HP into mental traits like Will and Stress (from Horror).

Such a system would be suitable for the more antagonistic forms of social interaction, like intimidation, torture, brainwashing, or provocation; it might also be applicable to fast-talking. But it would be a bad for for more amiable interactions like debate or diplomacy.
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Old 05-21-2019, 07:39 AM   #9
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Social interaction more combat like ?

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Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
I'm in agreement with Social Engineering's overall philosophy. That said, I think something interesting and useful could be devised using Martial Arts: Technical Grappling as a starting point, but translating physical stats like ST and HP into mental traits like Will and Stress (from Horror).

Such a system would be suitable for the more antagonistic forms of social interaction, like intimidation, torture, brainwashing, or provocation; it might also be applicable to fast-talking. But it would be a bad for for more amiable interactions like debate or diplomacy.
there is something like that in The Citadel at Nordvorn to represent flyting, which are Viking Skaldic Rap battles. They're very formalized, follow specific rules, etc. I didn't go the full TG/FDG with them, but it's easy to see how that would work.

One has to be careful over-mechanizing things. Yet because of the highly stylized and formal nature of a flyting competition, it seemed to me to be the same nature as combat. Just as you don't expect someone to stand up, grab a winged spear from the corner, and actually fight to see if their character can out-do the latest monstrous challenge, expecting every *player* to be able to insult or mock their opponent with the proper use of kennings, rhyme and meter, and with all the cultural knowledge assumed was a bridge too far: it invited an abstract mechanical solution.
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Old 05-21-2019, 08:18 AM   #10
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Default Re: Social interaction more combat like ?

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
there is something like that in The Citadel at Nordvorn to represent flyting, which are Viking Skaldic Rap battles. They're very formalized, follow specific rules, etc. I didn't go the full TG/FDG with them, but it's easy to see how that would work.

One has to be careful over-mechanizing things. Yet because of the highly stylized and formal nature of a flyting competition, it seemed to me to be the same nature as combat. Just as you don't expect someone to stand up, grab a winged spear from the corner, and actually fight to see if their character can out-do the latest monstrous challenge, expecting every *player* to be able to insult or mock their opponent with the proper use of kennings, rhyme and meter, and with all the cultural knowledge assumed was a bridge too far: it invited an abstract mechanical solution.
There are rules for that sort of thing in GURPS Social Engineering, too, for the same reason. Though it's worth a bonus, I think, if the player can suggest specific lines their mockery might follow.
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