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Old 02-20-2011, 09:22 AM   #41
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

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Originally Posted by jeff_wilson View Post
One thing that many/most law enforcement are trained to do that rarely makes it into fiction is that they cuff or otherwise restrain a downed hostile person before seeing to their medical condition. It really stood out in training films and I was one as one of several first-year LE students who asked, "Why are they handcuffing the dead guy?" Answer: "You can't confirm he's dead, or even physically incapacitated until someone checks them physically, so you need to restrain them first just in case."
Even in a cynical country like ours, seeing a cuffed dead person will almost automatically result in the conclusion that this was premeditated murder performed by the militiant (read: cop), not a case of justified lethal force.
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Old 02-20-2011, 01:43 PM   #42
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Even in a cynical country like ours, seeing a cuffed dead person will almost automatically result in the conclusion that this was premeditated murder performed by the militiant (read: cop), not a case of justified lethal force.
Which is an erroneous conclusion. I don't really understand the confusion here: the person was shot by a police officer for some reason. While police do shoot the wrong people from time to time, I don't think we should expect our police officers to place themselves in more harms way by assuming the dead or incapacitated person can't do anything in response. When lethal force comes out, I like err on the side of safety, rather than the side of "nice".

For some places, where violent crimes are rare, I can see how this behavior could be seen as harsh or whatever.
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Old 02-20-2011, 01:49 PM   #43
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

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Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
Which is an erroneous conclusion. I don't really understand the confusion here: the person was shot by a police officer for some reason. While police do shoot the wrong people from time to time, I don't think we should expect our police officers to place themselves in more harms way by assuming the dead or incapacitated person can't do anything in response. When lethal force comes out, I like err on the side of safety, rather than the side of "nice".

For some places, where violent crimes are rare, I can see how this behavior could be seen as harsh or whatever.
The assumption might be that the cuffs came before the shooting. It happens that wau someplaces though the worst I can remember in the US reecently is people being tased after they have been cuffed.
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Old 02-20-2011, 02:00 PM   #44
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

I've had the good fortune of never having had to cuff a dead body before but, if a situation arose where I thought my safety might be compromised if I DIDN'T cuff a dead or near dead person, that person gets cuffed. Screw what it looks like, screw what everyone thinks about it. I get to go home at the end of the day.
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Old 02-20-2011, 02:22 PM   #45
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

The only further information I have to offer is that I was taught this about 1990, in a Texas criminal justice school by a former FBI agent who had served all over the US. It came up in the context of a film called "The Inner Cop" or something similar, about handling the stresses of police work, and was assembled from recreations of situations filmed by the participating officers from several places around the US. The "cuff the dead guy" segment was IIRC about a ski masked warehouse burglar who tries to cover his getaway with a gun when officers arrive. They returned fire, and when the shooter falls, the officer in charge runs over to cuff him, then rolls him over to check his vitals. He pulls off the guy's mask to reveal a very young face and is vocally upset that he's just shot a kid.
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Old 02-20-2011, 05:47 PM   #46
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
That section is a bit poorly written, but here's how I interpret it:

If you are at 0 HP or below, and you took on action OR made a defense roll on your last turn, then you must roll HT to avoid unconsciousness at the start of your turn. If you did not make a defense roll on your last turn AND Did Nothing, then you do not have to make a HT roll to avoid unconsciousness.
I don't think it's poorly written, I think it's quite clear.

1. If you get to 0HP or less, you have to make a HT roll at the beginning of your next turn (turn 1*). That is before you have done anything, so the exception can't come into effect yet.
2. At the beginning of your next turn (turn 2+), you check what you did last turn after getting to 0HP or less, and if you chose Do Nothing and didn't defend yourself, you don't have to roll. But otherwise you have to make a new HT roll.

What you did before you got to 0HP or less has no influence on the HT rolls you have to make. And therefore you always have to make the first roll.

*That is your first turn after you reach 0HP or less.
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Old 02-21-2011, 04:13 PM   #47
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

The 0HP or less HT check, B419.
Forum Quorum: Has been Krommed - see posts #77 and #92.
Case A: you must take a HT check, 4 votes for, and the Correct answer
Case B: you only have to if you decide to be active, 3 votes for and off target.
Case C: you must if you were active when it happened, 1 vote for and was half right.

I'm not counting myself (but if I had been I'd a been only half right too)

Does the following roughly cover the cases?

At the start of combat time, if your character is severely wounded before he has the chance to choose an action, he is assumed to be doing nothing, B364. If the attack was one he chose not to or could not defend against (eg unseen attacker), this is the status described in the Exception. On his turn, cases B and C say no check unless you intend to become active.

If he acted or attempted a defense, A and C say do check. B says check if you're gonna keep at it.
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Last edited by jacobmuller; 02-23-2011 at 03:47 PM. Reason: Kromm has spoken, huzzah!
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:52 PM   #48
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

I just noticed something I should have seen before, concerning the effects of injury. Whenever a character takes a Major Wound (1/2 HP or more) or takes any damage to the head or vitals, they roll for Stun, which carries with it the chance of a knockout. This is completely separate from the per-turn roll to remain conscious at 0 HP. With this in mind, I'd have to cast my vote for option B, but keeping in mind that they'd still have to make a HT roll when injured to avoid Stun. If a target is dropped to 0 HP in a single attack, and fails the HT roll, they'd fall prone but still be aware. They'd be unable to act until the Stun wears off, and then on any turn in which they do anything except stay prone they'd need to roll HT or pass out
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:47 AM   #49
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

"Roll only on turns during which you attempt a defense roll or choose a maneuver other than Do Nothing" seems pretty clear, to me. Any turn where you chose to Do Nothing, you don't roll, even if it's the first after injury. Only if you end up defending do you have to roll.

And no, you don't roll for consciousness (As opposed to stunning) right when you're knocked down to 0 HP or less. It says you make the roll "at the start of your next turn," and continue to do so each turn afterward to remain active.

So:

A, turn 1: Jogging along like an unsuspecting dope.
B, turn 1: Leaps out from the brush and stabs A in the gut. A tries to dodge and fails, is immediately taken down below 0 HP. Makes HT roll for stunning, so A stays active.
A, turn 2: If he chooses to do something, he would have to roll HT. Instead, he chooses to Do Nothing, staggering a bit with a silly surprised look from being stabbed by some strange person.
B, turn 2: Stabs again. A decides he'd really rather not get hit by B again, so he'll try to dodge again and hope it serves him better than last time. A has to roll his consciousness check for his turn 2 now. If he fails, he falls unconscious. If he makes it, he's conscious until the start of his next turn, and can try his defense.
etc, etc.
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Old 02-22-2011, 09:09 AM   #50
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

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Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
":

A, turn 1: Jogging along like an unsuspecting dope.
B, turn 1: Leaps out from the brush and stabs A in the gut. A tries to dodge and fails, is immediately taken down below 0 HP. Makes HT roll for stunning, so A stays active.
I beleive this overlooks the overlapping/continuous nature of gurps Turns. A's Turn 1 does not end after he carries out the Move action he announced. It only "ends" just before his Turn 2 "begns".

So he was both Moving and Dodging while he had 0 HP and should roll. It might seem clearer if it specified that rolls took place at the _end_ of your Turn rather than the beginning of the next but there is no fuctional differenxce.

As a House rule for greater simplicity, clarity and realism too I plan to do away with the Do Nothing excepton. It doesn't make any sense that you can stave off unconsciousness by lying there quietly.
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