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Old 02-05-2018, 03:32 PM   #1
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Medium Dependent Intelligence, Uncopyable Intelligence, and Transhumanism

I was curious if anyone thought that you could have a Transhuman setting where intelligence (biological or digital) was medium dependent and nontransferable? In effect, biological intelligences could not become digital intelligences and digital intelligences could not become biological intelligences. In a related idea, do you think that a Transhuman setting could exist with each intelligence is uncopyable? Do you think that a Transhuman setting could exist with those changes in assumptions or would that those changes in assumptions alter the setting too much?
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Old 02-05-2018, 03:46 PM   #2
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Medium Dependent Intelligence, Uncopyable Intelligence, and Transhumanism

Being able to upload meat-brains to electronic form seems pretty essential to calling it transhumanism, though you can certainly have a game with the other features and no uploading. Downloading to meat is pretty unimportant, it doesn't even work in vanilla THS.

Digital intelligences being uncopyable strongly suggests that there is a non-physical component to intelligence (which people would promptly decide is the soul). Hard evidence for souls would be a pretty radical setting issue, though again, you could certainly have a setting that appeared otherwise conventionally transhuman (including uploading).
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Old 02-05-2018, 03:54 PM   #3
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Medium Dependent Intelligence, Uncopyable Intelligence, and Transhumanism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Being able to upload meat-brains to electronic form seems pretty essential to calling it transhumanism,
It's not. Brain uploads are just one kind of transhumanism. Genetic engineering, cybernetic implants, treatments that stop the aging process, (and of course creating superhuman AIs that aren't knockoffs of a dead human) these all have just as much claim to be transcending human limitations.

Last edited by David Johnston2; 02-05-2018 at 05:06 PM.
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Old 02-05-2018, 04:40 PM   #4
(E)
 
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Location: New Zealand.
Default Re: Medium Dependent Intelligence, Uncopyable Intelligence, and Transhumanism

Other variations
- Digital uploading of a human brain creates an imperfect copy.
- Digital upload of a human brain is a destructive process without guaranteed success.
- the nature of the hardware required makes identical copies impossible.
- AI can only be created from an existing consciousness and may or may not be able to be copied after.
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Old 02-05-2018, 06:22 PM   #5
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Medium Dependent Intelligence, Uncopyable Intelligence, and Transhumanism

Is the idea that only the substrates (meat, electronics) don't support the opposite type of intelligence? Or that any intelligence is uncopyable, anywhere? That is, can you copy meat-meat, or electronic-electronic?
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Old 02-05-2018, 06:31 PM   #6
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Medium Dependent Intelligence, Uncopyable Intelligence, and Transhumanism

Brain "uploads" require an ideology from the thread of doom, so it's quite feasible to have a world where that frame of thinking is uncommon to non-existent.

Digital intelligences that are stuck in their present form could be an outgrowth of the similar ideology that would stop people from "uploading", so again such a setting is feasible. Or just that some aspect of A.I. self-creation is difficult to identify and copy precisely. No need to invoke metaphysics.
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Old 02-05-2018, 06:33 PM   #7
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Medium Dependent Intelligence, Uncopyable Intelligence, and Transhumanism

Quote:
Originally Posted by (E) View Post
Other variations
...
- Digital upload of a human brain is a destructive process without guaranteed success.
....
That is the THS default. It obliterates the human to create an A.I. copy. And even with high skills and technology, mistakes sometimes happen to create "low res" versions.
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Old 02-05-2018, 08:58 PM   #8
Johnny1A.2
 
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Default Re: Medium Dependent Intelligence, Uncopyable Intelligence, and Transhumanism

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I was curious if anyone thought that you could have a Transhuman setting where intelligence (biological or digital) was medium dependent and nontransferable? In effect, biological intelligences could not become digital intelligences and digital intelligences could not become biological intelligences. In a related idea, do you think that a Transhuman setting could exist with each intelligence is uncopyable? Do you think that a Transhuman setting could exist with those changes in assumptions or would that those changes in assumptions alter the setting too much?
If done right, I think that would be more nearly a true 'transhuman' setting than THS. It makes gene-upgrading and bioroids suddenly viable, economically and maybe culturally, it means that you could see the human race split into multiple trans/post-human breeds that have some reason to exist, since SAI/ghosting is not always there leaving them looking pointless.

You didn't specify 'no SAI', of course. But even there, you could produce a viable setting by allowing SAI but restricting it. Your stated premises preclude beaming themselves around the Solar System, since they can't copy themselves, that solves about 40% of the 'SAI problem' right there. Go a bit further, restrict SAI to macroframes or bigger, or else make them so expensive that they are only used rarely.

Then you've got a genuine 'transhuman' setting.
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Old 02-05-2018, 09:03 PM   #9
Johnny1A.2
 
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Default Re: Medium Dependent Intelligence, Uncopyable Intelligence, and Transhumanism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Being able to upload meat-brains to electronic form seems pretty essential to calling it transhumanism, though you can certainly have a game with the other features and no uploading. Downloading to meat is pretty unimportant, it doesn't even work in vanilla THS.

Digital intelligences being uncopyable strongly suggests that there is a non-physical component to intelligence (which people would promptly decide is the soul). Hard evidence for souls would be a pretty radical setting issue, though again, you could certainly have a setting that appeared otherwise conventionally transhuman (including uploading).
That's one way it could work, but there others.

For ex, suppose they can make SAI, but to do so they have to 'grow' them over time, because the data volumes and processing interconnectivity necessary for true conscious intelligence turns out to be so great that it's just not practical to copy it. It might be possible in principle but unworkable in practice.

For ex, suppose creating a viable SAI requires a macroframe computer, or more, and 20 years, and the result is so intricately complex that copying it would take months of data linkage. That would have much the same result.
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Old 02-05-2018, 11:13 PM   #10
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Medium Dependent Intelligence, Uncopyable Intelligence, and Transhumanism

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Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2 View Post
For ex, suppose they can make SAI, but to do so they have to 'grow' them over time, because the data volumes and processing interconnectivity necessary for true conscious intelligence turns out to be so great that it's just not practical to copy it.
That pretty much makes it 'not digital', because it implies a hardware solution, not a software solution.
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