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Old 03-23-2016, 12:45 PM   #91
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Deceptive Attack isn't only tricky maneuvers. Waiting for an opening, attacking with less buildup than normal, and so forth are also represented by Deceptive Attack, and at least some of those would be usable against a foe using Evasive Movement.
The only one of the two things you actually listed that would work is waiting for an opening, and only if the target's evasion pattern has predictable sections long enough for you to notice that they've started one, take the shot, and have it arrive before they've gotten back to actual unpredictable movement.
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Are you suggesting that Predictive Shooting is only available at close range, and that Evasive Movement is only available at long range? What would you suggest to be the range (or, rather, timing) cutoff, and is this a binary switch (beyond n yards, Predictive Shooting is impossible, and you can only Dodge if using Evasive Movement) or something more progressive (beyond n yards, Predictive Shooting is -3 per -1, then -4 per -1, and so forth; closer than n yards, Evasive Movement gives a -1 to Dodge, then -2, and so forth)?
Evasive movement can work at any range, thanks to shooter reaction time, but isn't very good at ranges without useful amounts of projectile travel time. I'd suggest that evasive movement should be considerably worse than reactive dodging, at least against a single attacker, at any range...if you can count on being able to see their attack to react. Both evasive maneuvering and reactive dodging would receive big bonuses for projectile travel time.

True predictive shooting should work against either reactive dodging (which theoretically requires the target to be able to see the attack, though this is rarely well-addressed) or evasive movement at sufficiently close range that it's actually possible to make useful predictions. (You could also have a special ability-based variation for characters who have precognition/telepathy/superior theory of mind allowing them to predict movements of a target without conventional cues.)
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I'm saying that Predictive Shooting against Evasive Movement should be available, because it makes sense at close range. You were (or at least seemed to be) saying that Predictive Shooting against Evasive Movement shouldn't be available, because it doesn't make sense at long range. If we assume we're both correct (that PS makes sense at short range, not so much at long range), then either we have to decide which situation we want our rules to be accurate for ("breaking" in the other situation) or we need to come up with some additional rules for determining if we're in a "short range" (PS available) or "long range" (PS unavailable) situation. Having no good idea how to do the latter, I opted for the former, and felt that things "breaking" at long range was a lesser evil than them doing so at short range.
My first thought, which I'm not super happy with, is to allow predictive shots at ranges up to Per yards. Tactical Shooting uses that threshold for a thing or two.
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Old 03-23-2016, 01:13 PM   #92
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Evasive movement can work at any range, thanks to shooter reaction time, but isn't very good at ranges without useful amounts of projectile travel time.
Missing with hitscan weapons in FPS games argues against this, though a lot of that has to do with simply not being in an attackable location for long enough for the attacker to aim.
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Old 03-23-2016, 01:19 PM   #93
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Missing with hitscan weapons in FPS games argues against this, though a lot of that has to do with simply not being in an attackable location for long enough for the attacker to aim.
Not very good doesn't mean useless, and yeah, if you try to shoot before your brain has gone through target acquisition you're in trouble.

A lot of FPS games these days, even if the weapons are hit-scan, are not altogether free-pointing.

Also, in online gaming, your reaction times are often significantly and deceptively extended by network lag...
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Old 03-23-2016, 01:37 PM   #94
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
The only one of the two things you actually listed that would work is waiting for an opening, and only if the target's evasion pattern has predictable sections long enough for you to notice that they've started one, take the shot, and have it arrive before they've gotten back to actual unpredictable movement.
I was just saying there were probably more interpretations in Martial Arts that would work. If you require more than just that one (which is basically "wait for a lull in dodging"), another would be to find a body part that isn't getting displaced as randomly as the others (Well, he's juking and weaving like a madman, but his hips aren't really moving from that place, so a shot to the pelvis...). Yet another would be to aim somewhere the foe is likely to move to, then pull the trigger as soon as the target is about to cross into that space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Evasive movement can work at any range, thanks to shooter reaction time, but isn't very good at ranges without useful amounts of projectile travel time. I'd suggest that evasive movement should be considerably worse than reactive dodging, at least against a single attacker, at any range...if you can count on being able to see their attack to react. Both evasive maneuvering and reactive dodging would receive big bonuses for projectile travel time.
I can see that paradigm working. Perhaps difficult to work out some proper rules for it, but workable. A simple penalty to Dodge for Evasive Movement could work. For Time of Flight adjustments, Evasive Maneuvering could have any penalty get translated into a bonus on top of the normal penalty, while Reactive Dodging could do the same, but automatically maximize the penalty. So, at one second out, a roll of 3 means a -2 to hit and a +1 to Dodge for Evasive Maneuvering, while for Reactive Dodging you disregard the roll and just go with -5 and +2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
True predictive shooting should work against either reactive dodging (which theoretically requires the target to be able to see the attack, though this is rarely well-addressed) or evasive movement at sufficiently close range that it's actually possible to make useful predictions. (You could also have a special ability-based variation for characters who have precognition/telepathy/superior theory of mind allowing them to predict movements of a target without conventional cues.)

My first thought, which I'm not super happy with, is to allow predictive shots at ranges up to Per yards. Tactical Shooting uses that threshold for a thing or two.
That could work. Probably a bit too close, but still, it could work. I'd be tempted to base it on the appropriate weapon skill floated to Per, rather than just Per, but that's probably double-dipping.
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