DR (Tough Skin... No Signature?)

[Varyon]

Personally, I wouldn't give Superman Tough Skin - as far as I can tell, he doesn't get hurt by crushing attacks at all. Both he and Grimm would have something like what I call Subcutaneous DR - they are still susceptible to contact agents (like Rogue's touch), but their DR is rigid. Well, technically, Subcutaneous would be a -20% Limitation that allows for both contact and blood agents, but in their case that would probably only be a -10% for allowing for only contact agents. In a Supers setting, obvious DR is probably worth a Limitation (Visible), rather than being the default.

[Bruno]

Sorry to pick on this as it's slightly off topic, but it's RIGHT in the first post and nobody's mentioned it.

Originally Posted by Tallor

In a certain GURPS book (not sure if I should reference)

.... Why would you not reference the book (GURPS Monters Hunters 1: Champions, some of the Inhuman racial templates)? This is a rules discussion. On the internet. It's pratically de-rigeur for someone to shove their glasses up their nose and demand "citations please". :)

If you're worried it's an error, being secretive about it is unhelpful. SJG isn't going to be ashamed of an error and ban you from the board for pointing it out, they're going to want to correct it, and they like people to know about corrections.

[Alden Loveshade]

Originally Posted by Bruno

........ Why would you not reference the book (GURPS Monters Hunters 1: Champions, some of the Inhuman racial templates)? This is a rules discussion. On the internet. It's pratically de-rigeur for someone to shove their glasses up their nose and demand "citations please". :)

(Shoving glasses up nose) OP signed up for this forum just this month, so it's perfectly understandable they wouldn't already know SJGAMES FORUM SOP. :-)

[Tallor]

My feelings summed up perfectly.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Tallor

My feelings summed up perfectly.

Nah. Actually SJG solicits errata reports, though it's a low enough priority that it can take a long time for minor ones to get acted on enough to update that games errata page.

But if you post them to the forums you should probably get used to people telling you they aren't errors, even when they obviously are. And disagreements on how to fix them are a sure thing.

[Ulzgoroth]

I'm really not a believer in changing what ability-building modifiers mean by genre.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Tallor

Can my biker dude get a bonus to Intimidation if he has DR (Tough Skin) 2? :P

I've known some dudes like that.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I'd agree, though from Ghostdancer's link it seems that RPK might not apply the same rules in a supers context. (And indeed Supers does not use No Signature on DR.)

Originally Posted by Alden_Loveshade

In Supers, we sometimes use Tough Skin (no Signature). As PK said, it's not realistic, but I think it works just fine for Supers.

Originally Posted by Phantasm

I admit, I'm one of those that does not add No Signature to DR for my supers builds. As PK explains in the link, supers is often its own wonky genre with different genre assumptions. Therefore Superman and Killer Croc both get DR (Tough Skin) without No Signature although they look radically different.

I should note that folks with obvious DR like Ben Grimm I normally don't give Tough Skin to. Folks like that are rarely taken down with touch attacks anyway. This can get slightly wonky compared to most expectations, as it makes Ben Grimm immune to Rogue's "bare skin to bare skin" power leech!

That said, if I was taking a more realistic approach, then yes, Superman would require No Signature.

I not only applied that same logic to my supers game, Aeon, but I embraced it. I have a rule to determine what a super's defenses might be and DR without Low/No Signature makes it really easy to figure out what might damage you. "That guy is armored like a tank!" Moreover, No Signature DR will let you pass a medical screening or pass as normal with ease. I just created an NPC who has No Signature on all of his defensive traits just so he can blend in and be normal. We'll see how it goes.

[Anthony]

The problem is that this really opens up a can of worms -- if my character is strong but not obviously muscular am I required to take Low/No Signature on my ST -- and in practice "has hidden abilities", while useful, is not 20% enhancement level useful.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The problem is that this really opens up a can of worms -- if my character is strong but not obviously muscular am I required to take Low/No Signature on my ST

Originally Posted by Basic page 14

10: Average. Most humans get by just fine with a score of 10!
11 or 12: Above average. These scores are superior, but within the human norm.
13 or 14: Exceptional. Such an attribute is immediately apparent – as bulging muscles, feline grace, witty dialog, or glowing health – to those who meet you.

Originally Posted by Anthony

-- and in practice "has hidden abilities", while useful, is not 20% enhancement level useful.

"It's mispriced" is a different argument to "it shouldn't be applied".

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The problem is that this really opens up a can of worms -- if my character is strong but not obviously muscular am I required to take Low/No Signature on my ST -- and in practice "has hidden abilities", while useful, is not 20% enhancement level useful.

Visibility of attributes has never been addressed to the same extent as visibility of Advantages. (And at extreme levels it breaks down altogether, there's no physical tell for a human having ST 100 unless they're using it.)

I think there are two different cases for 'how burly do you look' being a free feature with minimal coupling to stats. On the one hand, looking strong and looking not that strong are both useful, in different ways. Being surprising is not always a positive. On the other hand GURPS deliberately makes build a free choice, which probably should largely include how muscular your character looks.


This isn't necessarily any can of worms with No Signature (though it may be a can of worms independently), because not all abilities need No Signature to be unseen. Many do have No Signature by default.