Going Celestial through Dreams and returning to Earth

Kallatari · 01-03-2021, 01:09 PM

FYI, I use GURPS In Nomine, but my question is more about how the setting works, so should be ruleset independent.

A celestial on Earth in a vessel can enter a person's dream through songs or attunements (e.g., from Blandine). This typically involves their vessel going into a sleep-like trance, and their celestial bodies going into the dream. This effect has a limited duration, after which the celestial is forced out of the dream and back into its vessel.

While in the dream, a celestial with the right skill (in GURPS, it's Lucid Dreaming) can exit the dreamscape, effectively entering the Vale of Dreams within the Ethereal Marshes. The celestial is then free to roam the Marshes, and could, for example, go to another random dream, Asgard or Olympus.

- Can the Celestial now stay within the Marshes indefinitely, or will it still be forced back to its body when the original song/attunement ends?

The celestial can now even travel to the celestial realms, such as by going to Blandine's tower and entering Heaven.

- Same question. Is this indefinite or does the celestial get pulled back into its vessel when the duration ends?
- In the case of the latter, is this an automatic escape clause? Could an angel on Earth go through a dream, enter the Marshes, then enter Hell, do what it needs to do and, even it caught, will escape when it returns to its vessel? (Granted, the odds of it making it into Hell within the duration of the song are practically nil, but would it theoretically be possible?)

Now for the more interesting questions (for me anyway). While in Heaven, the celestial with his sleeping vessel on Earth now uses a tether and goes back to Earth. What happens?

- Does the celestial's original vessel currently in a trance disappear and re-appear when the celestial arrived at the tether?
- If the celestial has a second vessel, can it appear in the second vessel instead? If it can use a second vessel, does the original sleeping vessel disappear? If the original vessel doesn't disappear, does that mean the new vessel disappears when the duration ends and the celestial arrives back in the original sleeping vessel?

If there are clear rules for this somewhere, I'd appreciate a book reference as well.

Thanks in advance.

cptbutton · 01-03-2021, 03:27 PM

Not sure how relevant it is to your questions, but this old thread of mine might be worth a look.

William · 01-03-2021, 10:12 PM

I believe that at the time the angel enters either celestial realm, its Vessel would demanifest as it would when taking celestial form normally.

Kallatari · 01-04-2021, 12:49 PM

I seem to have found a partial answer, from which you can infer the remaining answers. Sharing it for everyone's info.

The rules state that a "dreaming" celestial can go to Heaven, and then return to his "sleeping" vessel simply by waking up (GURPS In Nomine, p.179). This clearly means that the vessel does not disappear when the dreaming celestial goes celestial via the Marshes.

Can he go back down a Tether in a second vessel? That's not answered directly.

However, there is a rule regarding the possession ability of Kyriotate (conveniently enough on the same page) that is relevant. A celestial whose vessel is possessed is forcefully ejected to the Marshes. If they make it back to Heaven (or Hell) and if they have a spare vessel, they can go back down to Earth in another vessel while the Kyriotate is still in possession of the original vessel. As soon as that original vessel is no longer possessed, if the owning celestial is in the Ethereal Marshes, he returns to this original vessel. If the celestial owner is instead in the celestial realm or in another vessel, the formerly possessed vessel dissipates.

That suggests that you cannot have two vessels in place at once (unless one is occupied by someone else), and any unoccupied vessel would disappear. So, I think it's reasonable to assume that a "sleeping" vessel would disappear if the projecting celestial owner returned to the Earth. But until that point, it definitely remains behind.

And it does seem to provide an "escape clause", allowing you to quickly retreat back to your vessel by waking up (which requires a Will roll).

William · 01-04-2021, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kallatari

The rules state that a "dreaming" celestial can go to Heaven, and then return to his "sleeping" vessel simply by waking up (GURPS In Nomine, p.179). This clearly means that the vessel does not disappear when the dreaming celestial goes celestial via the Marshes.

Huh. Okay, I definitely stand corrected.

01-03-2021, 01:09 PM	#1
Kallatari Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ottawa, Canada	Going Celestial through Dreams and returning to Earth FYI, I use GURPS In Nomine, but my question is more about how the setting works, so should be ruleset independent. A celestial on Earth in a vessel can enter a person's dream through songs or attunements (e.g., from Blandine). This typically involves their vessel going into a sleep-like trance, and their celestial bodies going into the dream. This effect has a limited duration, after which the celestial is forced out of the dream and back into its vessel. While in the dream, a celestial with the right skill (in GURPS, it's Lucid Dreaming) can exit the dreamscape, effectively entering the Vale of Dreams within the Ethereal Marshes. The celestial is then free to roam the Marshes, and could, for example, go to another random dream, Asgard or Olympus. - Can the Celestial now stay within the Marshes indefinitely, or will it still be forced back to its body when the original song/attunement ends? The celestial can now even travel to the celestial realms, such as by going to Blandine's tower and entering Heaven. - Same question. Is this indefinite or does the celestial get pulled back into its vessel when the duration ends? - In the case of the latter, is this an automatic escape clause? Could an angel on Earth go through a dream, enter the Marshes, then enter Hell, do what it needs to do and, even it caught, will escape when it returns to its vessel? (Granted, the odds of it making it into Hell within the duration of the song are practically nil, but would it theoretically be possible?) Now for the more interesting questions (for me anyway). While in Heaven, the celestial with his sleeping vessel on Earth now uses a tether and goes back to Earth. What happens? - Does the celestial's original vessel currently in a trance disappear and re-appear when the celestial arrived at the tether? - If the celestial has a second vessel, can it appear in the second vessel instead? If it can use a second vessel, does the original sleeping vessel disappear? If the original vessel doesn't disappear, does that mean the new vessel disappears when the duration ends and the celestial arrives back in the original sleeping vessel? If there are clear rules for this somewhere, I'd appreciate a book reference as well. Thanks in advance.

01-03-2021, 03:27 PM	#2
cptbutton Join Date: Jul 2007	Re: Going Celestial through Dreams and returning to Earth Not sure how relevant it is to your questions, but this old thread of mine might be worth a look. __________________ -- Burma!

01-03-2021, 10:12 PM	#3
William Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan	Re: Going Celestial through Dreams and returning to Earth I believe that at the time the angel enters either celestial realm, its Vessel would demanifest as it would when taking celestial form normally.

01-04-2021, 12:49 PM	#4
Kallatari Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ottawa, Canada	Re: Going Celestial through Dreams and returning to Earth I seem to have found a partial answer, from which you can infer the remaining answers. Sharing it for everyone's info. The rules state that a "dreaming" celestial can go to Heaven, and then return to his "sleeping" vessel simply by waking up (GURPS In Nomine, p.179). This clearly means that the vessel does not disappear when the dreaming celestial goes celestial via the Marshes. Can he go back down a Tether in a second vessel? That's not answered directly. However, there is a rule regarding the possession ability of Kyriotate (conveniently enough on the same page) that is relevant. A celestial whose vessel is possessed is forcefully ejected to the Marshes. If they make it back to Heaven (or Hell) and if they have a spare vessel, they can go back down to Earth in another vessel while the Kyriotate is still in possession of the original vessel. As soon as that original vessel is no longer possessed, if the owning celestial is in the Ethereal Marshes, he returns to this original vessel. If the celestial owner is instead in the celestial realm or in another vessel, the formerly possessed vessel dissipates. That suggests that you cannot have two vessels in place at once (unless one is occupied by someone else), and any unoccupied vessel would disappear. So, I think it's reasonable to assume that a "sleeping" vessel would disappear if the projecting celestial owner returned to the Earth. But until that point, it definitely remains behind. And it does seem to provide an "escape clause", allowing you to quickly retreat back to your vessel by waking up (which requires a Will roll).