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Old 02-20-2020, 10:19 PM   #1
X the Unknown
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Default [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

Hi all. Still relatively new to RPM and I'm still trying to determine how much or how little should be in a ritual. I have a player mage who would like to be able to create working dogs as needed and I can easily see this becoming more prevalent as his character grows and begins to cast greater power rituals.

Using Animalia in GURPS for its variety and specificity (http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/animalia/animalia.html), we get a number of dogs from small Ratters to large Guard Dogs, but all are under 100 lbs. The character has Animal Handling (Dogs) at 15 and has experience training a number of different types of working dogs.

Would the following ritual be sufficient to create any of the variety of dogs as long as they are under 100 lbs. (Greater Create Body), give them a standard dogs mind of IQ 4 (Lesser Create Mind), instills in them an IQ 4 level of training (Lesser Create Mind), and makes the caster part of their pack and the master (Lesser Control Mind)?

Create Working Dog
Spell Effects: Greater Create Body, Lesser Create Mind, Lesser Control Mind
Inherent Modifiers: None
Greater Effects: 1 (x3)

This ritual creates any type of trained working dog under control of the caster as long as it is less than 100 lbs., for 1 day.

Typical Casting: Greater Create Body (6) + Lesser Create Mind (6) + Lesser Create Mind: Training (6) + Lesser Control Mind (5) + Subject Weight: 100 lbs. (2) + Duration: 1 day (7)
Cost: 96 energy (32 x 3)

Last edited by X the Unknown; 02-21-2020 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 02-21-2020, 05:47 AM   #2
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

Training would probably be Lesser Strengthen Mind (Altered Trait) rather than Lesser Create Mind. The base would be a 0 point feature (basically as untrained dogs are less useful), but every 1 CP in skills/techniques would increase the cost by +1. Technically, RPM does not specify rules for instilling skills and techniques, but I believe that anything up to (Attribute)+5 would be lesser while anything beyond that would be greater. A much cheaper version though would be to find an existing dog and make it a loyal pet through magic.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:47 AM   #3
X the Unknown
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Default Re: [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

Thanks again for answering me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Training would probably be Lesser Strengthen Mind (Altered Trait) rather than Lesser Create Mind. The base would be a 0 point feature (basically as untrained dogs are less useful), but every 1 CP in skills/techniques would increase the cost by +1. Technically, RPM does not specify rules for instilling skills and techniques, but I believe that anything up to (Attribute)+5 would be lesser while anything beyond that would be greater.
Huh. I stayed away from Strengthen Mind for the training as it listed only Advantages and bonuses to Resistance rolls, but I can definitely see how this would work in conjunction with Altered Traits and it would allow for variations depending on how much training you'd want to give the dog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
A much cheaper version though would be to find an existing dog and make it a loyal pet through magic.
He already has a dog; a puppy actually, and he's going through the arduous task of training her in play. He is using magic to help with the training, but doesn't want to do any mind warping on the dog to make her loyal.

I also chose the dog as an example as I could get several different types of dogs with different working roles, but all within the same weight category, so I could see how a more generic ritual would/could/should be made. The same might be done for birds (chickadee, raven, hawk), equines (horse, donkey. mule), or any number of other animals (dolphins to pull a boat).

When we first started using RPM we made every ritual wrong. Very wrong. We were wielding powerful effects for little energy. As we explored how other people were using RPM, rereading T:RPM, and scouring the forums here and elsewhere (thank you Ravens N' Pennies), we found out how to do it better, but we're still not sure we're doing it right. We've created a 13 page 'cheat sheet' that contains just the essentials to determine pricing for a ritual. It takes time to make something new that's complex, but we save every ritual we make and sometimes we can tweak it just a bit to make something new without building it from scratch.

I'm rambling. Sorry.

Thanks again for the reply and the insight.
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Old 02-21-2020, 11:49 AM   #4
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

Do you use the Path of Nonexistence? It allows for some powerful effects on the cheap (though the consequence is every failure is a critical failure). For example:

Summon Talking Dog (Lesser Destroy Nonexistence): You destroy the rule of existence that prevents a sapient talking from existing. While the resulting dog is not under your control, it knows that its existence depends on your goodwill, so it is reasonably loyal (make a standard Loyalty test, modified by Magery).

Typical Casting: Lesser Destroy Nonexistence (6), Subject Weight: 100 lbs (2), and Duration 1 year (21), for a total of 29 energy.
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Old 02-21-2020, 02:29 PM   #5
X the Unknown
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Default Re: [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

No, no Path of Nonexistence. I've been reading a number of threads about this path, and while it sounds interesting and I can think of a number of campaigns I could use it in, this one wouldn't be one of them.
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Old 02-21-2020, 03:24 PM   #6
ericthered
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Default Re: [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

I'd pull in the allies modifier from ravens'n'pennies (written by the guy who wrote the 2nd most about RPM).

Greater Create Body (6) + Lesser Create Mind (6) + Lesser Control Mind (5)+weight 100 lbs (2) + duration 1 day (7) + Ally (25% of points, 1 ally) (4) = 90

I wouldn't use an extra create for training the dog: create mind and the cost of the ally should cover that.

It will of course be cheaper energy wise to get a real dog and alter their mind, but creating living beings out of nothing should be expensive.
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Old 02-21-2020, 03:31 PM   #7
DangerousThing
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

I haven't use RPM for a bit, but how about this:

Lesser Strengthen Chance + Lesser Control Mind

To improve the chance that such a dog would be right here.

Or would that need to be a greater effect?
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:09 PM   #8
X the Unknown
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Default Re: [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I'd pull in the allies modifier from ravens'n'pennies (written by the guy who wrote the 2nd most about RPM).

Greater Create Body (6) + Lesser Create Mind (6) + Lesser Control Mind (5)+weight 100 lbs (2) + duration 1 day (7) + Ally (25% of points, 1 ally) (4) = 90

I wouldn't use an extra create for training the dog: create mind and the cost of the ally should cover that.

It will of course be cheaper energy wise to get a real dog and alter their mind, but creating living beings out of nothing should be expensive.
Yeah, I'd read over Ghostdancer's post on Ravens N' Pennies on the spell modifier: summoned. I really like it. I'm wondering though; would you really need Lesser Control Mind (which I put in there to control the creation) if it's an Ally?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
I haven't use RPM for a bit, but how about this:

Lesser Strengthen Chance + Lesser Control Mind

To improve the chance that such a dog would be right here.

Or would that need to be a greater effect?
I would think it would be a Greater Strengthen Chance, but I'm still not 100% certain. I always go with Ghostdancer's post (sorry, I can't find it to quote it directly. It's part of my cheat sheet though):

I use three rules to determine Greater effects:
• How difficult is the task? Could a normal person accomplish it easily? If it’s easy, then mark it as a “Yes.” If it’s hard, mark it as a “No.”
• Could anyone do it given equipment and a reasonable amount of time?
• Would it violate the natural laws of the setting?

If you answered “Yes” to all three than it is probably a Greater effect; if you answered “No” to all three, then it is probably a Lesser effect. If you answered “Yes” to one or two questions, then it’s iffy. It might be a Greater effect, if might be a Lesser effect. When I’ve answered “Yes” twice I err on the side of caution and charge for a Greater effect, when I answer “Yes” only once, I usually call it a Lesser effect and go on with the game.

As far as using the Path of Chance for this, I usually shy away from it. It has its place, but I'd rather not have everything be a lucky break. That being said, I do have an NPC that shows up now and again, by chance, who runs his entire existence by the Path of Chance. He's more of a plot point though.
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Old 02-22-2020, 12:44 AM   #9
johndallman
 
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Default Re: [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
Lesser Strengthen Chance + Lesser Control Mind

To improve the chance that such a dog would be right here.
The problem with that is that if such dogs don't exist in the setting, increasing the odds of one showing up "naturally" can't produce one.
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Old 02-22-2020, 12:54 AM   #10
DangerousThing
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
The problem with that is that if such dogs don't exist in the setting, increasing the odds of one showing up "naturally" can't produce one.
The character trains working dogs. Therefore, it should be possible to see one around, by chance.

Not very probable in some places, though.
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