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Old 02-22-2020, 04:26 PM   #11
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

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Originally Posted by X the Unknown View Post
I'm wondering though; would you really need Lesser Control Mind (which I put in there to control the creation) if it's an Ally?
Considering it's a trained dog you are creating, probably not - dogs tend toward loyalty to humans already. If you were creating something like a leopard, I'd probably require Lesser Control Mind for you to be able to claim it as an Ally.

Of course, Lesser Control Mind would still be useful for a trained dog, as I would have it give you greater control over its actions (you don't need to use a visual or verbal command, for example).

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As far as using the Path of Chance for this, I usually shy away from it. It has its place, but I'd rather not have everything be a lucky break.
One issue that can crop up with RPM is an inclination to try to figure out a way to do entirely too much with a single Path, and Path of Chance lends itself to this better than just about any other (aside from Nonexistence, but that should be a rare Path in most settings, and is incredibly dangerous).
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Old 02-23-2020, 02:28 AM   #12
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

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Originally Posted by X the Unknown View Post
Create Working Dog
Spell Effects: Greater Create Body, Lesser Create Mind, Lesser Control Mind
Inherent Modifiers: None
Greater Effects: 1 (x3)

This ritual creates any type of trained working dog under control of the caster as long as it is less than 100 lbs., for 1 day.

Typical Casting: Greater Create Body (6) + Lesser Create Mind (6) + Lesser Create Mind: Training (6) + Lesser Control Mind (5) + Subject Weight: 100 lbs. (2) + Duration: 1 day (7)
Cost: 96 energy (32 x 3)
You don't need the Create Mind effect here. You can conjure the dog to be under your control starting out.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I'd pull in the allies modifier from ravens'n'pennies (written by the guy who wrote the 2nd most about RPM).
Right. That's usable. One thing that is not there is that you can have it also include the Minion (+50%) modifier for 1.5x the energy.

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Originally Posted by X the Unknown View Post
Yeah, I'd read over Ghostdancer's post on Ravens N' Pennies on the spell modifier: summoned. I really like it. I'm wondering though; would you really need Lesser Control Mind (which I put in there to control the creation) if it's an Ally?
Again, no. created beings effectively have Minion (+0%) - they do what you tell them and won't betray you. You trade that out for initiative. If they are bound, but also capable of doing things on their own then you would need another effect - probably Control Mind.

Edit: The GM could change this for a setting. For example, in MH summoning demons is easy, but controlling them is hard. They want to be summoned, but not controlled.
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Last edited by Christopher R. Rice; 02-23-2020 at 02:45 AM.
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Old 02-23-2020, 06:59 AM   #13
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

Conjured animals are explicitly required to be given Lesser Create Mind (RPM, p. 12). In addition, there is no mention of Ally (with or without Minion) in RPM, so one would presumably need to use Lesser Create Mind to implant loyalties (I would rule that the added energy cost would be equal to the creations CP value as an Ally).

Alternatively, we could just add two additional type of effects: Summon and Banish. Summon would cost a base 6 energy and would cost an additional amount equal to the Ally value of the entity while Banish would cost the same amount. Lesser effects would impel normal movement while greater effects would cause portals to the home of the individual. A summoned entity is considered a normal Ally of the equivalent value to the extra energy spent using Summon.
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Old 02-23-2020, 10:39 AM   #14
X the Unknown
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Default Re: [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
You don't need the Create Mind effect here. You can conjure the dog to be under your control starting out.
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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Conjured animals are explicitly required to be given Lesser Create Mind (RPM, p. 12).
Based on the context of the sentence, I think he meant Control Mind effect. He did post it at 4:28 am. :-)

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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
One thing that is not there is that you can have it also include the Minion (+50%) modifier for 1.5x the energy.
I can see when this would work well, especially if you have a horde of creatures, but I just can't do it with a dog; it just brings visions of mistreated dogs. (GM sentimentalism)

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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
Again, no. created beings effectively have Minion (+0%) - they do what you tell them and won't betray you. You trade that out for initiative. If they are bound, but also capable of doing things on their own then you would need another effect - probably Control Mind.
Interesting nuance. No initiative creations have unwavering loyalty, but creations with initiative need to be reigned in.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Of course, Lesser Control Mind would still be useful for a trained dog, as I would have it give you greater control over its actions (you don't need to use a visual or verbal command, for example).
This brings up a question: What is the range on this mental control? 10 yards? Within sight? 5 light years? Twelve planes down?
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Old 02-23-2020, 11:58 AM   #15
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

I would generally limit the range to the range purchased by the working.
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Old 02-23-2020, 04:07 PM   #16
X the Unknown
 
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Default Re: [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

Ok, sorry I didn't respond sooner to this, but I had to think a couple of things through as this could have consequences to the magical cosmology of the campaign.

First:

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Alternatively, we could just add two additional type of effects: Summon and Banish. Summon would cost a base 6 energy and would cost an additional amount equal to the Ally value of the entity while Banish would cost the same amount. Lesser effects would impel normal movement while greater effects would cause portals to the home of the individual. A summoned entity is considered a normal Ally of the equivalent value to the extra energy spent using Summon.
I want to shelve this right now. Not because it doesn't have merit, but because they're sounding very close to Effects. When you get right down to it, it's really short-cutting; combining a Control Mind/Spirit/Undead with a Create/Stregthen Crossroads (Lesser or Greater as needed). I also want to see it get done using just the base rule set. I think that's why I want to avoid Ally as spelled out over at Ravens N' Pennies... for now.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
In addition, there is no mention of Ally (with or without Minion) in RPM, so one would presumably need to use Lesser Create Mind to implant loyalties (I would rule that the added energy cost would be equal to the creations CP value as an Ally).
So this brings up another interesting problem for me. If we ignore Animalia in GURPS, not because it's not fantastic, but because it's not RAW, and we spec out the Large Guard Dog form Basic p. 457, we see that the total CP value would be -32. Now, I know you don't get points off the ritual for this, but that would just make players see that as 32 points they're throwing away. Players don't do that, so they'll beef up the creation. I don't have a problem with this, but it should cost to adjust something away from the norm, at least when it's a bonus.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I would generally limit the range to the range purchased by the working.
Right. Range.

So, separating out each piece with the modifiers pertinent to that piece, we have:

(creating the physical body)
Greater Create Body (6) + Subject Weight: 100 lbs. (2)

(create the mind to run the body with the necessary training)
Lesser Create Mind (6) + Lesser Create Mind: Training (6)

(creation obeys the caster, retains initiative when allowed, and the caster can relay commands mentally within 15 yards)
Lesser Control Mind (5) + Range: 15 yards (5)

Duration: 1 day (7)

Cost: 111 energy

What do you think? Does it make sense the way I explained. it? There might be ways to make it a little less complex, a little cheaper, and give the caster the opportunity to beef it up a bit, but I'd like to make sure this isn't wrong. Yes, I know, Rule Zero, but GMs make mistakes... sometimes... though very rarely... and they rarely have an impact on the campaign.
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Old 02-23-2020, 05:05 PM   #17
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Conjured animals are explicitly required to be given Lesser Create Mind (RPM, p. 12). In addition, there is no mention of Ally (with or without Minion) in RPM, so one would presumably need to use Lesser Create Mind to implant loyalties (I would rule that the added energy cost would be equal to the creations CP value as an Ally).
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Originally Posted by X the Unknown View Post
Based on the context of the sentence, I think he meant Control Mind effect. He did post it at 4:28 am. :-)
Yup. I meant Control and posted Create. My bad



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Originally Posted by X the Unknown View Post
Interesting nuance. No initiative creations have unwavering loyalty, but creations with initiative need to be reigned in.
It's the only thing that will make sense otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by X the Unknown View Post
This brings up a question: What is the range on this mental control? 10 yards? Within sight? 5 light years? Twelve planes down?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I would generally limit the range to the range purchased by the working.
That's not how Mind Control works and that's not how I'd have this work for RPM either. Once you control your subject they remain controlled regardless of the distance. Range only matters to establish control.

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Originally Posted by X the Unknown View Post

So, separating out each piece with the modifiers pertinent to that piece, we have:

(creating the physical body)
Greater Create Body (6) + Subject Weight: 100 lbs. (2)

(create the mind to run the body with the necessary training)
Lesser Create Mind (6) + Lesser Create Mind: Training (6)

(creation obeys the caster, retains initiative when allowed, and the caster can relay commands mentally within 15 yards)
Lesser Control Mind (5) + Range: 15 yards (5)

Duration: 1 day (7)

Cost: 111 energy

What do you think? Does it make sense the way I explained. it? There might be ways to make it a little less complex, a little cheaper, and give the caster the opportunity to beef it up a bit, but I'd like to make sure this isn't wrong. Yes, I know, Rule Zero, but GMs make mistakes... sometimes... though very rarely... and they rarely have an impact on the campaign.
You don't need a seperate effect for training the creature. Build the dog as you would any NPC and add whatever training you want it to have there.
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Old 02-24-2020, 01:10 PM   #18
X the Unknown
 
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Default Re: [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

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Lesser Create Mind: Training (6)
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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
You don't need a seperate effect for training the creature. Build the dog as you would any NPC and add whatever training you want it to have there.
:-)

You keep telling me that, and yet I keep putting it in there. I promise it's not because I'm not listening to you. That last bit was a combination of thoughts that I really should have separated and explained.

The reason for the Training was not for the dogs skills, but for the command structure per Animal Training Basic p. 458, in this case when the creation was outside of the 15 yard mental command range that I had included within the spell... that you say isn't needed either. If I can include the training as far as skills, I guess I can easily include the training as far as commands.

Thanks for this.
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Old 02-24-2020, 03:42 PM   #19
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: [RPM] Ritual Question: Create Working Dog

Ok. No worries.
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