Mounted Slingers

[Icelander]

In the real world, the evidence that slings were ever used from horseback is, at best, spotty. To be charitable, that is. Another view is that there is no such evidence and that any mention of slings among mounted warriors refers to tertiary weapons that they might have used while dismounted.

One of the primary reasons why it is unlikely that any military would field mounted slingers is the obvious fact that horses are usually a fairly expensive piece of military gear. Slings, on the other hand, are generally used by those too poor to afford better weapons. So someone who can afford a horse can also afford a bow. While it is true that horses were not, comparatively speaking, as expensive among, for example, Amerinds after European contact as they were in the medieval world, they were still more expensive than a simple bow.

In addition to that economic reality, many authorities, ranging from airmchair experts to historians and hoplologists, have also pointed out that the sling requires more stability than other missile weapons to use. Accurate shooting on the move would be even harder with a sling than with bows or crossbows.

Some commentators also speculate that the position of a mounted man, seated behind the head of the horse, makes is difficult to use a sling effectively. Many common methods of use for the sling are precluded or made harder by the need to avoid hitting your mount in the head, which I understand is frowned upon by cavalrymen.

Generally, in GURPS, any condition which constrains the usages of a weapon and restricts the user to a limited subset of moves is represented mechanically by a penalty. Examples of such is the penalty to attack while using a shield or the effective penalty of defaulting a Sport skill to a Combat skill.

That's the real world, though. In GURPS, slings are hardly inferior to bows at all. In fact, for strong characters, they are superior to most firearms before TL6 and still competative with many common pistols at TL8. And it is no harder to use a sling while mounted than it is to use a carbine or pistol.

So there exists an incentive for players to have their characters use slings from horseback. Even, should they be so inclined, to learn Techniques that facilitate mounted slinging. Such characters can be explained as simply idiosyncratic or perhaps as coming from a culture where horses, perhaps captured from the wild, are plentiful whereas bows are unknown or at least somewhat rare.

At any rate, I am of the opion that if something is mechanically feasible, it works in the game world. So if something should not be done in the game, I'd like to have the rules back up the contention that it is a bad idea.

Intuitively, it seems right that it would be difficult to use a sling while seated on a horse. Granted, it is difficult to use any ranged weapon while on a moving horse, but it seems as if the position of a mounted man makes it particularly awkward to swing around a sling with any effect. At least bows don't hit your horse or yourself on the head if the slightest thing goes wrong.

I'll admit that I have little experience of riding, none at all of cavalry service and less than that of using real slings. I might, therefore, be wrong.

I appeal, therefore, to the forumites.

First of all, is it really harder to use a sling from horseback than it is to use other missile weapons?

Second, if so, how would one represent it mechanically? How much harder is it?

Third, can anyone recall if slings were used on horseback by any culture? For hunting or for war, doesn't matter.

Edit: I can't find an explicit reference that says so, but I've always assumed that the penalties for using handheld missile weapons from ground vehicles also applied to using them from mounts. This means a -1 on a good road, -3 on a bad one and -4 on rough terrain. Furthermore, I apply speed penalties whenever the attacker is moving anywhere else but directly at or from his target.

Neither of these penalties is mentioned in the section on mounted shooting in Basic (p. 397) or in MA, but if I didn't apply them, there would essentially be no penalty in using any kind of missile weapon from a galloping horse, except the minor one of not being allowed to Aim for more than one turn and being limited to your Riding skill.

So a character with skill 12 in both Riding and his chosen missile weapon would be equally effective shooting from a stationary horse, while standing on the ground or while galloping over broken ground. In all cases, he'd be shooting at a rate of 15 arrows or sling stones per minute and his effective skill would be (12+Acc-Range).

There would thus be no need to learn the techniques Horse Archery or Mounted Shooting, because there were no penalties to reduce with it. No penalties, that is, unless you planned to turn in the saddle and shoot or hang from the side of your mount, neither of which is standard for all cultures using missile weapons from mounts. Not applying these penalties means that any character with the Riding and Bow skills would be as effective in normal service in the role of a mounted archer as a specialist who has learned how from childhood how to shoot from horseback. And that's bollocks.

[gilbertocarlos]

Taking a hard skill(-1 skill) and Acc 1, the effective range will be much lower than a bow, even more so on horseback.

And remember, most soldiers don't have ST 14+, so, you will never find a very strong guy who can teach you to use a sling mounted, you will need self training.

[Hannes665]

In Tibet they used to hunt from horseback using slings, for warfare I don´t think so. But never say never.

[trans]

Two guys from Iceland and a Brazilian discussing the use of slings on horseback on a US website - how obscure can you get?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Taking a hard skill(-1 skill) and Acc 1, the effective range will be much lower than a bow, even more so on horseback.

Using realistic bow stats, bow Acc is 1-2.

It is true that this still translates into a lower effective range for the sling than warbows, but that is not enough to rule out mounted slingers. Slings are, after all, much cheaper and lighter than javelins, for example. And most battlefield missile weapons are effective against formations even if point accuracy is low. With Acc 1 and skill 11, slingers will still be able to hit a target the size of a maniple of soldiers, after all.

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

And remember, most soldiers don't have ST 14+, so, you will never find a very strong guy who can teach you to use a sling mounted, you will need self training.

By the rules, a ST 8 guy can teach the ST 18 guy Sling skill and Riding (Equines) skill. No self-training necessary. Same goes for Mounting Shooting (Sling/Horse) if it is available at all. The ST of users doesn't come into it.

If you mean that slings aren't desirable as weapons unless you have ST 14+, it is true that they are even better if you have high ST, but they are still fairly effective at normal human ST from 8-12. Particularly since the amount of ammunition mounted archers could carry was always limited, which was a significant tactical consideration. Slings offer the potential for more shots per engagement at the same encumbrance. By the rules as written, that is.

I am not convinced that slings are truly that effective compared to bows, but that's something of a side-issue. For this thread, I'm mainly concerned with whether they could be used on horseback as easily as they can be while standing on solid ground. As noted up-thread, my intuitive sense, and that of other commentators, is that using slings while seated on a horse, even a stationary one, is harder than using bows. That's more than the difference between Avg and Hard skills, because that still applies to people with firm footing and plenty of space to swing.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Hannes665

In Tibet they used to hunt from horseback using slings, for warfare I don´t think so. But never say never.

Do you have any sources? Websites where I can get more information? Even printed books (or better yet, books available for Kindle).

[ErhnamDJ]

Now I'm curious. Did anyone ever use slings from chariots?

[jacobmuller]

I found a sling (as opposed to sling-shot) website last year.
There's a surprising number of people who hunt using slings.
I'm not at home at present but when I get back I'll search my pc for the weblink. EDIT: forgot my harddrive died in Feb. Fortunately I see someone else has a link - <3 Forum!

I did use one of the sites resources to make my own "Apache" sling. Can be worn as a belt. No twirling around head. Just put a stone in it, hang it by your side, then pretend to throw a stone - the sling extends your arm "force multiplier"? It would be awkward from horseback but only as awkward as throwing a stone/ punch - limit by riding skill?
I've read a few descriptions of "awesome" power of slings, eg stopping a charging wildboar. Not something I can comment on.
EDIT: Apache sling style on youtube

[Icelander]

If it is possible to use slings from horseback, this has applications for my current fantasy game.

The PCs are recruiting soldiers for their mercenary company, in order to use them to fight a war of liberation on behalf of the population that forms their recruiting base.* The best source of recruits are those from cultural backgrounds that require little further training to adapt to military life. These would be people who already have relevant skills, such as outdoors-y ones, knowledge of the surrounding land and even weapon skills with useful weapons.

The PCs' side has pretty good heavy infantry and the PCs brought elite missile troops, in the form of caliver-men and crossbowmen. There is plenty of raw material available to recruit good light infantry and scouts. Where they are really weak is in cavalry.

Even trained cavalrymen in the service of nobles of the almost-defeated polity are being forced to fight dismounted, for the simple and cogent reason that until now, the small amount of territory available to the last remnants of the resistance has been too small to feed all the refugees. Horses either died from sickness or lack of feed or they were 'nationalised' and eaten.

But now there is food coming in by sea and with the coming of spring, there is plenty of forage and fodder. So among the first military purchases will be mules for logistics trains and horses for cavalry.

This cavalry will face an enemy with some three thousand veteran horse archers, equivalent in quality to Parthians or Mongols, as well as about a thousand heavy horse and couple of thousand other, less capable, light cavalry. Obviously, fielding light cavalry with spears or sabers against this is a recipie for military disaster.

Since disciplined and fully-armoured heavy cavalry is expensive and will take years to create, the obvious counter to enemy missile cavalry is to use infantry with longer range. But this just prevents them from massacring your men. It would essentially mean conceding defeat on the scouting front. If your cavalry can't fight theirs, you can't scout and you can't prevent them from scouting whereever they want. This means that there are few alternatives available other than forming some form of light cavalry that can potentially contend with horse archers.

Granted, the enemy will still have more and better cavalry. But they have a large and barely-pacified country to cover, in addition to the front where there is still active warfare. So the PCs' side has the potential to achieve at least numerical parity and perhaps superiority where they choose to concentrate their forces.

But unless their cavalry has some form of missile capability, they'll just be targets to the enemy horse archers. Even inaccurate sling shooting would be better than no shooting at all. So if the PCs can get mounted slingers, they'll want them.

In my campaign, as in reality, slingers and archers can't really be trained. Either someone grew up using these skills or he'll probably never be good at them. This means that if there aren't already people with Bow or Sling skill among the recruits, the best that can be done is crossbowmen or javelin-throwers.

Happily, however, the PCs can recruit among such people as shepherds and hill bandits, many of whom have used slings their whole lives. Skill 12+ with the sling is very common among the hill folk and the rural herdsmen and experts with skill 14+ are far from rare. These will be good recruits for the light infantry and the bandits essentially come completely pre-trained as such.

Skill in Riding is less common, of course, but some of the bandits might use mounts and even herdsmen might be rich enough for a horse or two. Former riders for the defunct imperial courier service would have high Riding and might have grown up using slings against wolves, much like ordinary countrymen.

Then there is the consideration that the military of the almost-defeated country has mostly broken up. That leaves a good number of unemployed soldiers among the refugees that form the PCs' recruiting base. A fair number of these former soldiers must have had civilian experiences before joining up. Some will come from shepherd communities or hill or mountain bandit clans. If some of them happened to have served in mounted branches of the defeated national armies, they'd have learnt Riding and be familiar with the military uses of the skill. In addition, they still might retain some skill with the sling from civilian life, even though they may not have been issued missile weapons as cavalrymen.

It is therefore probable that a certain number of potential recruits might possess both Riding and Sling. Riding at high level would be uncommon**, but Sling at high levels would not be. And while it takes a lot of time to train good cavalrymen, that's not because it's all that hard to teach the Riding skill. That could be done in months, both in reality and in GURPS rules. I'll admit that in reality, the result will be people competent enough at sitting horses, but not capable of synchronised maneuvers in battle, but that's beside the point.

In GURPS terms, it would easily be possible to find, in a matter of days, several hundred people with Riding and Sling at 12+. People with Sling 12+ and Riding 10+ would be even more common and could, at any rate, be 'manufactured' at a fairly fast rate by teaching hill bandits Riding.

Would people with these skill sets be useful as mounted slingers? Even if the penalties for Mounted Shooting, as written, were prohibitive, could they use slings from stationary horses, much like cataphracts used their bows?

In addition to whatever the PCs decide to do about cavalry, there is another concern I have about mounted slingers. Nomad horsemen that inhabit the savannahs to the south of the territory claimed by the polity that the PCs are fighting to liberate often use slings as hunting weapons. If it is at all possible to use them from horseback, these men are likely to be proficient in doing so. And they might play a role in future games, either as allies, antagonists or something in between.

*Yes, it still counts as 'mercenary', even though they are fighting a war of liberation. For one thing, they are being heavily paid from the coffers of the rump regime and for another, they are seeking even bigger rewards in the form of land, titles and mining rights after the war is won.
**For one thing, the PCs aren't the only ones interested in hiring good former soldiers and there weren't all that many cavalrymen in the former national forces that weren't noble, in any case.

[malloyd]

My personal feeling is that while it is certainly possible to use a sling from horseback, it isn't the *same* skill as using it from the ground. Slinging involves quite a lot of body motion that isn't going to work in a saddle. It's certainly at least as different as spear vs. lance. I'd probably use the rule for exotic Dance forms, counting it as a separate skill with a default of -5, not a technique of Sling. I'd probably allow some sort of default, skill adaptation perk or other synergy with Bola, at least if you had the Mounted Shooting (Bola) technique.

It's also going to suffer the same limited angles problem as mounted archery. The reason you can't shoot a bow straight ahead on a horse isn't so much the horse's head gets in the way, it's that aiming the bow that way would normally require the lower limb of it to pass through the space occupied by the body of the horse. The sling is worse, being nonrigid you have to start with the sling hanging dead vertical from your hand, and sweep it through an arc longer than your arm, that pretty much constrains you to either parallel to the axis of the mount, or one of those less efficient circle your head approaches, where you basically don't get to use your back muscles or add the length of your arm to the lever.