Making Firearms Matter

[Orlin]

Anyone who has glanced over the Core Guide will tell you that In Nomine does not treat Firearms very kindly, and most of the people who've taken a hand in the creation of the system will tell you that this was deliberate. Admittedly, when I think up the words "Apocalyptic Battle Between Heaven and Earth," a .50 Caliber Desert Eagle is not the first image that my mind conjures.

We want fiery swords, bleeding blades and celestial axes. We want the Spear of Destiny. We want to see magnificent creatures with wings, claws, horns, halos and blazing weapons of righteous fury inspired feudal time periods to go at it, slashing, cleaving, howling and battling for the fate of humanity. I can respect that. But sometimes I want a good old fashioned firefight, and sometimes the degree to which guns were watered down just annoys me.

When my angels are in Corporeal form and the influential organized crime leader they've been trying to negotiate with snarls and levels a sub-machine gun so that the barrel is pointed directly at a character's head, I want that character to feel like his vessel is in danger. Serious danger. Unfortunately, generating that sort of response is extremely difficult.

I've run In Nomine a good seven or eight times now, and I can't tell you how many times I've watched my goons miss at point-blank range with a fully-automatic weapon. Hell, it even happens with some of my more prominent antagonists! Admittedly, they're more often dodged than "missed," but it irks me still.

Fortunately, these horribly failed point-blank spray-and-pray scenarios have, if nothing else, given my players a pretty good laugh. They tend to think of themselves as characters from The Matrix when they manage to dodge automatic rifle-fire, rather than immediately attributing the folly to some screw-up on the mook's part. I'm ambivalent

Better than the alternative, I guess.

I admit, I'm still getting a handle on the In Nomine system, and combat in any game is not something you grasp overnight. I've grown to love the CD for skill rolls, but I'm beginning to harbor mixed emotions about its use as a means of damage calculation. In fact, I've already begun tinkering with a number of the variants in the GM's Guide...

One of the aforementioned variant rules dramatically reduces HP, which has helped to put a little more lethal umph in some of the firearms. I haven't used it lately because I found it made my villains a little too easy to drop, but now that I've got a better handle on combat strategies and the relationship between weapons and armor, I've considered bringing it back.

In any event, I've been looking for ways to make firearms more powerful without completely robbing the game of its allure. I have no issue with flaming swords and glowing scourges that call forth the terrors of the mind, but I want to make it mean something when even the simplest, most worthless NPC gets ahold of a heavy machine gun and cuts loose across an enclosed hallway. Naturally, there are already some powerful factors in play that will help dissuade PC's from using guns as anything but a last resort, not the least of which is Symphonic Disturbance.

So, I figured I'd open the forum. Do you have different rules for point-blank shots? Called shots? Suppression Fire? Pop-up shots? Different damage scales for firearms as a whole? Different values for protective gear? Other ways of dealing with burst-fire and fully-automatic spray 'n pray? I'm listening.

It should be noted that I'm already employing the Reduced Target Numbers variant from the GM's Guide, and I'm not particularly interested in watching characters add their Ethereal Forces to attacks with firearms. I'm also extremely partial to the "Enhanced Dodge" variant presented in the GM's Guide, whereby a Celestial who scores a higher naked value on her CD than that of her attacker suffers no damage, but as I said, I'm open to suggestions.

I'm also leery of strange scales that involve the use of multiple dice to determine damage, but I'd be lying if I wasn't at least a little interested in what people have come up with, whether for melee or ranged combat. I like the d666 mechanic, but I'm not crazy about the strange way that it tends to limit the damage scale. When 1d6-3 to 1d6+X is really all you have to work with, things get tricky. I understand that there are some weapons out there -- such as grenades and rockets -- that tinker with this mechanic, but most of these weapons do so in such a fashion that the CD is not involved, or else is involved very creatively.

I'm aware that this could be a case of GURPS fever, but with IN, "Go play GURPS" doesn't feel like an option. I get pretty easily aggravated by sticker shock.

[William]

Originally Posted by Orlin

In any event, I've been looking for ways to make firearms more powerful without completely robbing the game of its allure. I have no issue with flaming swords and glowing scourges that call forth the terrors of the mind, but I want to make it mean something when even the simplest, most worthless NPC gets ahold of a heavy machine gun and cuts loose across an enclosed hallway.

Turn spray-and-pray into an environmental barrier? No dodging, just low-level damage to anyone who crosses the field being covered?

For more aimed shots, you seem to have covered a lot of the possibilities for changing the damage rules. And you don't want GURPS. Hm. Exploding dice? For every 6, roll another die, another 6 means roll again? Makes guns potentially very lethal, but only on rare occasions.

[JCD]

I like the GMG body hit variant which reduces the upper end while raising the floor. This makes Mooks less mooky and the Heros less bulletproof.

Here is a rather messy fix for you which will necessitate an additional chart. Leave the rather simplistic game mechanics in place. Hit, dodge, whatever.

If you have GURPS, use the hit location table for the impacts and modify the damage accordingly. A double or triple damage for a head shot is going to get their attention.

This will lead to players wanting to game the system and doesn't deal with the abysmally low gun scores of mortals which are frankly unrealistic. figure the added difficulty for hit locations by using 2/3 of the modifer, rounded up.

I have NOT playtested this, but I've been considering using it in my own game.

[Jason]

Wacky idea off the top of my head:

Tweak the rules so that damage from "supernatural" sources (Numinous Corpus, relics, etc.) always does soul damage in addition to any body damage sustained by a vessel, but that mundane sources (guns, non-relic swords, etc.) only do damage to body hits. Then you can dramatically up the damage or target number for guns without diminishing the cool-factor of flaming swords. Artifacts remain dangerous and impressive, but guns typically are a one-way street into Trauma.

[Azel]

Originally Posted by Orlin

When my angels are in Corporeal form and the influential organized crime leader they've been trying to negotiate with snarls and levels a sub-machine gun so that the barrel is pointed directly at a character's head, I want that character to feel like his vessel is in danger. Serious danger. Unfortunately, generating that sort of response is extremely difficult.

I've run In Nomine a good seven or eight times now, and I can't tell you how many times I've watched my goons miss at point-blank range with a fully-automatic weapon. Hell, it even happens with some of my more prominent antagonists! Admittedly, they're more often dodged than "missed," but it irks me still.

I recommend the Corporeal Player's Guide advice about humans and skill checks: if concerned, give them variant rules as compensation. As the book mentions, if going strictly by skill points and forces, human Sunday Drivers would end up in 10-car pile-ups every time. Some that I liked were extra skill points for professions or just for basic everyday life on earth, routine actions, and specialization.

In the example above, I'd be tempted to run the human's point blank assault rifle shot as a routine action and only roll for the check digit to determine damage. If I did want to calculate the roll I'd run +2 for being easy task, +1 for under half range, +1 for being point blank, and any +1's for surprise or rear attack bonus. However, I think it's not the target number rolls that are the issue.

I've always had a difficult relationship with Dodge in this game; something about it working for all 3 levels of reality and/or getting a chance to trigger for each attack. Something about it bugs me. It's almost like a mindless selection that you should take Dodge at 6 if you can. And the thing is, I dig Enhanced Dodge rules as well... One thing I'd do for the first issue is make players take Dodge at each of AGI, PRE, & PER. The second issue is harder for me. I'm thinking separate Full Dodge, Targeted Dodge, and Ambient Dodge; Full Dodge is already in IN Core, and then all you need to do is nerf Ambient Dodge and create a bonus for Targeted Dodge. Or better yet, make Ambient Dodge equal to Full Dodge and all regular Dodge rolls equal to Targeted Dodging.

But is the dodging damage reduction an issue or just firearm damage output? For the latter you can just say fast repeating firearms just add more throughput damage, i.e. instead of 1 D666 per attack and using the burst shot power in parentheses, just add regular power and multiply by the shots per round. So for M-16 with power at +4 and +8 for a 6 bullet burst, just use +4 and multiply by 6. CD 3 + 8 = 11 damage, versus (CD 3 + 4)6 = 42 damage -- very scary! Considering the poor accuracy of submachine guns however, I'd be kind and give Enhanced Dodge and multiply the dodge damage prevention on through with the number of shots as well. I.e. in above example, CD 4+ (if not prone, point blank, surprised, rear attack, etc) would avoid the damage completely, and a CD 3 would get (CD 3)6 = 18 pts off of the 42 damage burst... 24 pts of damage isn't so bad vs 11.

Better? Human technology has been getting exponentially more lethal recently, so it only stands to reason firearms would be a great leveler for humans. And in fact, with such a rules tweak, high repeating firearms would make waaaay too much noise for the average celestial to even bother with, too much collateral damage and disturbance.

[JCD]

Hmm. Something I hadn't considered before. A Malakim doing 'spray and pray' will still be making a lot of noise, even if he misses because he's breaking something.

This is a reasonably good rationale for why Celestials prefer hand to hand and melee combat: less chance of making unwanted noise.

[fwcain]

Originally Posted by JCD

A (Celestial) doing 'spray and pray' will still be making a lot of noise, even if he misses because he's breaking something.

My inner Kobalite just had a truly malicious thought...What if an enterprising and eager young servitor of Dark Humor managed to "con" some meat-puppet into sabotaging a divine weapons cache, so that the assault rifles were on full-auto (regardless of the selector switch), and also had their triggers rigged to continue firing and not stop, once the triggers are pulled...

"Make me laugh," indeed... >:-)

[Orlin]

Turn spray-and-pray into an environmental barrier? No dodging, just low-level damage to anyone who crosses the field being covered?

I've totally considered using this mechanic for Suppression Fire, actually. I got the idea from GURPS. I've also considered a similar mechanic for "Cover Fire" stolen from Spycraft. Essentially, Spycraft confers a defense bonus to any ally that you provide cover fire for (essentially it's just another form of suppression fire, where you're shooting like a madman around your ally so that people are deterred from trying to take a shot), but the bonus is a static +4. For Cover Fire, I could allow for a skill check, but the CD imposes a penalty on any potential attacker. Just a thought.

For more aimed shots, you seem to have covered a lot of the possibilities for changing the damage rules. And you don't want GURPS. Hm. Exploding dice? For every 6, roll another die, another 6 means roll again? Makes guns potentially very lethal, but only on rare occasions.

Not a bad idea, but I do this at my peril. Exploding dice can get frightening at times, and with my group it often seems like they either never explode, or they explode 6 or 7 times. Now, if I could find an appropriate circumstance for it, that'd be a different story. I'm just not sure what would cover it -- if it was restricted to aimed shots, my PC's might get aggravated because the CD never exploded when they called a shot, but came up as a 6 under practically every other occasion.

I like the GMG body hit variant which reduces the upper end while raising the floor. This makes Mooks less mooky and the Heros less bulletproof.

I like that it seems to be considerably more even-keeled because the HP minimum is higher while the maximum is lower. The problem I have with it is that my indecisiveness sometimes makes the reduced hit points for Celestials with higher scores appear to be frighteningly low, and it's always an adjustment. I try to be careful not to use this variant in a game unless it started out with it, or such a significant amount of time has elapsed between sessions that players are unlikely to notice the lower HP levels. Fortunately, many of my players are familiar with the SIF Role-Playing Game, which uses Shock and dramatically reduces HP, so the adjustment is never horrible.

Here is a rather messy fix for you which will necessitate an additional chart. Leave the rather simplistic game mechanics in place. Hit, dodge, whatever.

I thought about removing the enhanced dodge trait for automatic weapons, but I'm afraid that if I do this I'll confound my players. Overall though, I'm too attached to the dodge variant to do away with it.

If you have GURPS, use the hit location table for the impacts and modify the damage accordingly. A double or triple damage for a head shot is going to get their attention.

This will lead to players wanting to game the system and doesn't deal with the abysmally low gun scores of mortals which are frankly unrealistic. figure the added difficulty for hit locations by using 2/3 of the modifier, rounded up.

Not a bad idea by any stretch. I've considered using it in a limited capacity. For example, what if I multiplied just the CD by 4 for a headshot, but left the power alone? Or I could multiply the power but keep the CD. Or I could say that a headshot always deals max damage at double power, or...well, the possibilities are endless, but most would present kinks that need to be worked out. Finding the right balance might be a rough road.

Wacky idea off the top of my head:

Tweak the rules so that damage from "supernatural" sources (Numinous Corpus, relics, etc.) always does soul damage in addition to any body damage sustained by a vessel, but that mundane sources (guns, non-relic swords, etc.) only do damage to body hits. Then you can dramatically up the damage or target number for guns without diminishing the cool-factor of flaming swords. Artifacts remain dangerous and impressive, but guns typically are a one-way street into Trauma.

You know, I don't know what it is, but Celestial combat frightens me. I view Corporeal death as relative to unconsciousness in a Supers game and almost never take the game in that direction with IN, because I don't like to lose villains. As a result, I'd hesitate to allow any weapon to do Celestial damage -- I have absolutely no problem giving melee weapons the "summonable" feature for free, however, and I will almost always allow a character to take his melee weapon with him when he goes into his Celestial form.

In the example above, I'd be tempted to run the human's point blank assault rifle shot as a routine action and only roll for the check digit to determine damage. If I did want to calculate the roll I'd run +2 for being easy task, +1 for under half range, +1 for being point blank, and any +1's for surprise or rear attack bonus. However, I think it's not the target number rolls that are the issue.

I need to read up on routine actions; I didn't quite understand it the first time around and glossed over it. You may have something here.

You're right -- the target number's aren't the problem. It's the friggin' CD! I have an automatic pistol, you have a dodge skill. I'm at point range and use a burst-fire, but if I roll a naked CD of 2, and you roll a CD 3, I completely miss. Now, using a similar rule and just rolling the CD for a point blank, burst fire attack (with some kind of bonus, maybe?) has possibilities...but would, once again, require play-testing to see whether or not it was overpowered.

I've always had a difficult relationship with Dodge in this game; something about it working for all 3 levels of reality and/or getting a chance to trigger for each attack. Something about it bugs me. It's almost like a mindless selection that you should take Dodge at 6 if you can. And the thing is, I dig Enhanced Dodge rules as well... One thing I'd do for the first issue is make players take Dodge at each of AGI, PRE, & PER.

I completely agree.

The second issue is harder for me. I'm thinking separate Full Dodge, Targeted Dodge, and Ambient Dodge; Full Dodge is already in IN Core, and then all you need to do is nerf Ambient Dodge and create a bonus for Targeted Dodge. Or better yet, make Ambient Dodge equal to Full Dodge and all regular Dodge rolls equal to Targeted Dodging.

Can you explain what you mean by "Targeted Dodge" vs. "Ambient Dodge?" Or point me in the right direction? I may not have the source book, or I may have overlooked it.

But is the dodging damage reduction an issue or just firearm damage output? For the latter you can just say fast repeating firearms just add more throughput damage, i.e. instead of 1 D666 per attack and using the burst shot power in parentheses, just add regular power and multiply by the shots per round. So for M-16 with power at +4 and +8 for a 6 bullet burst, just use +4 and multiply by 6. CD 3 + 8 = 11 damage, versus (CD 3 + 4)6 = 42 damage -- very scary! Considering the poor accuracy of submachine guns however, I'd be kind and give Enhanced Dodge and multiply the dodge damage prevention on through with the number of shots as well. I.e. in above example, CD 4+ (if not prone, point blank, surprised, rear attack, etc) would avoid the damage completely, and a CD 3 would get (CD 3)6 = 18 pts off of the 42 damage burst... 24 pts of damage isn't so bad vs 11.

I have mixed feelings about this. Logically, it is the solution that makes the most sense -- although I'm not sure I've heard of a five or six-round bursts, which seem to be the way that IN describes fully automatic weapons. Aren't bursts usually three-round? In any event, multiplying the CD too much makes the damage astronomical, so I'd need to give my players a way to dodge it. The idea that you present, where a target removes the damage dealt by fractions, has merit, but I've been trying to get it to work so that there's a difference between 3-round burst and full-auto, which is rare.

With full-auto, you can easily waste an entire magazine without hitting a single target at sufficient distances, and you run the risk of burning through your clip very, very fast -- hence the term "spray and pray." What I would ideally like to implement is a way for a mook with an M-16 to target multiple PC's with a single wave of fully-automatic fire.

I've considered rolling the CD 3 times for 3-round bursts, but your solution seems more logical. The trouble is, when I'm actually confronted with the overwhelming damage values that this generates, I tend to chicken out.

Another thing that this has forced me to look at are some of the other combat rules. I've carefully examined Stun, and have considered making it so that any target who would ordinarily be auto-stunned receives a chance to roll Corporeal Forces + Vessel/Toughness to avoid it. I'd allow players to push this TN with Essence and limit stun durations to one round.

Another thing I've considered, stupid as it sounds, is factoring the "Stopping Power" of a weapon. This rule could be used for melee, but I haven't tested it. As a wild idea, if a target is struck, say he needs to roll STR - POW or be knocked prone?

Finally, I've really been forced to re-examine the rules for body armor and protective gear. Initially I just wanted to add more. Now? Well, I'm not so sure I like the "Hit Mod" option that most armor provides. If a bullet strikes a Kevlar vest, it should be tallied against the vests protection. The idea that the vest also imposes a penalty to other attacks strikes me as inherently strange. I feel that I should either counter this rule or ignore it completely.

[Azel]

Originally Posted by Orlin

Can you explain what you mean by "Targeted Dodge" vs. "Ambient Dodge?" Or point me in the right direction? I may not have the source book, or I may have overlooked it.

Oh, it's in no IN source book, just a term for passively dodging every attack versus actively dodging one source of attack. Comes from too much RPG/video game experience, so I thought it'd be a familiar concept. I just don't really dig how all IN Dodge as of now is passively on for dodging every attack while allowing you to still attack/act, whereas Full Dodge gives the same while only giving +2 on TN while sacrificing your action. A weak trade in my opinion -- just up your Dodge skill then.

In my view I'd let Dodge be an action, but it'd be Full Dodge; you get the TN bonus, you get Dodge benefit vs every attack, but you do nothing else. If you want to act/attack but want something to represent your agility evading stuff in a fight, then you get to single out one target which you roll a regular Dodge against, everything else can tag you, but at least you get to attack. For people asking how this effects being surrounded? Very easy, getting surrounded is now lethal -- avoid it. Further, it reintroduces movement and positioning again into the game (out-of-range is a very effective defense), which I always thought was crucial for cinematic play. The trick is to not get bogged down in movement rules, like you can in D&D.

Originally Posted by Orlin

I have mixed feelings about this. Logically, it is the solution that makes the most sense -- although I'm not sure I've heard of a five or six-round bursts, which seem to be the way that IN describes fully automatic weapons. Aren't bursts usually three-round?

Yes, yes they are normally 3 round bursts, but IN calculates them as 6 for ammo clip purposes. Not wanting to introduce more math I decided to go with their 6 round burst. However, I'm completely in favor of going to 3 round bursts. In the example above w/ 3 round bursts the damage comes down to more acceptable levels real fast. Instead of 42 damage it comes to 21, and instead of 18 prevented it comes down to 9. The result is a difference of 12 damage versus 24 per round -- a far more palatable result, especially in the light of melee monsters making 12 damage pretty easily. This might also bring down the lethality to levels you are more comfortable with.

Originally Posted by Orlin

In any event, multiplying the CD too much makes the damage astronomical, so I'd need to give my players a way to dodge it. The idea that you present, where a target removes the damage dealt by fractions, has merit, but I've been trying to get it to work so that there's a difference between 3-round burst and full-auto, which is rare.

With full-auto, you can easily waste an entire magazine without hitting a single target at sufficient distances, and you run the risk of burning through your clip very, very fast -- hence the term "spray and pray." What I would ideally like to implement is a way for a mook with an M-16 to target multiple PC's with a single wave of fully-automatic fire.

Now I see. And this indeed is a statistical challenge. Yes "spray and pray" rarely hits as many people, but it still scares them right well. The easiest way I think to resolve this is to remember most humans average Body HP at around 8 or less; one or two good bullets from a "spray and pray" will definitely take down or even kill an average human. Most celestials on the other hand have Body HP to spare and could likely justify charging into melee to snuff the attacker. This is wonderfully Cinematic © !

How to statistically represent this is still a wild call. If it were my call here's what I'd likely do: First I'd halve the total of Precision and Ranged Weapon Skill (for there will be neither precision nor skill in this task), then I'd give the TN +2 for easy task ('cuz not aiming and pulling a trigger is pretty easy!), and since most rooms aren't larger than 18' across (3 yards or less submachine range) i'd maybe give +1 for half range especially if the shooter is human. This is just to have any remote chance of success to hit TN after having relevant skills halved. After that, use the Roll over the TN+1 to get a fraction, run that against half the bullets used (because at least half are going to wildly miss targets), and call that the amount of bullets wasted. Then randomize the victims; number each available target, roll a die to see who gets tagged for each successful shot.

I.e. Precision of 4 (above average human) + RW submachine gun skill of 4 ÷ 2 = 4. Add on +2 for being easy, and +1 for being generous to a human in a regular sized room and you get a TN of 7. Successfully rolls a 4, full auto spray of 15-16 bullets in a 5-second round. Roll/(TN+1) * 1/2 Bullets = Hits. roll4/(TN7+1) * (1/2*16 bullets) = 4/8 * 8 = 4 wasted. In essence there'd be a range of 1-7 possible hits...

Oh to the dickens with it all, just halve the bullets used (assuming half are completely wasted) and roll a die equal to the remainder of bullets to see what hits. You'll hit someone eventually, so there's no real need to calculate TN or anything. Randomize the targets and distribute the spray damage rolls randomly. That saved so much more time! But remember, celestials always make crazy amounts of noise with full-auto! :D

Originally Posted by Orlin

I've considered rolling the CD 3 times for 3-round bursts, but your solution seems more logical. The trouble is, when I'm actually confronted with the overwhelming damage values that this generates, I tend to chicken out.

Beleth's original word was divine Fear. Without it no real respect can be given or earned in the minds of others. A pity she fell, but her word definitely served a purpose, to awe people into conscientious behavior. Just saying... Besides, no game is fun when there is no risk or challenge.

Originally Posted by Orlin

Another thing that this has forced me to look at are some of the other combat rules. I've carefully examined Stun, and have considered making it so that any target who would ordinarily be auto-stunned receives a chance to roll Corporeal Forces + Vessel/Toughness to avoid it. I'd allow players to push this TN with Essence and limit stun durations to one round.

I dig this. Raises vessel and toughness value for low corporeal focused PCs. I really, really like it. Body HP of 9 is bad, but a high vessel or toughness buys enough time to run to safety. Good idea, thus I'm stealing it. *Yoink!* By the way, might I suggest Corp Forces + Vessel lvl + Toughness? ;)

Originally Posted by Orlin

Another thing I've considered, stupid as it sounds, is factoring the "Stopping Power" of a weapon. This rule could be used for melee, but I haven't tested it. As a wild idea, if a target is struck, say he needs to roll STR - POW or be knocked prone?

Interesting. Flesh it out more, perhaps as another topic. Maybe called "ideas for alternate combat mechanics" or something.

Originally Posted by Orlin

Finally, I've really been forced to re-examine the rules for body armor and protective gear. Initially I just wanted to add more. Now? Well, I'm not so sure I like the "Hit Mod" option that most armor provides. If a bullet strikes a Kevlar vest, it should be tallied against the vests protection. The idea that the vest also imposes a penalty to other attacks strikes me as inherently strange. I feel that I should either counter this rule or ignore it completely.

Y'know, this nonsense is what bugged me from all the way back to D&D 1st ed. Protection doesn't make you harder to hit, it absorbs damage, period. Having to deal with THAC0s and Armor Classes and gnomes and elves traipsing through caves, cities, and mountains perpetually clod in full plate armor got on my LAST NERVE. Plate armor is heavy, hot, inconvenient for movement (thus easier to land a blow upon), and overall will kill you from exhaustion if you tried to last in it for longer than an hour or two in daylight.

I consistently wipe all armor "to hit" penalties from every game I run, if possible. Easiest way to deal with it is give armor an HP value, give it a Protection value against certain attacks, and run with it. Say Kevlar vest has 10 HP and versus bullets it gives a protection of 4. Bullet of power of 8 comes in, 4 of it dissipates from protection, 4 points rip into vest's HP = vest now at 6 HP. Now it's only good for maybe 2 more shots, and that's if it doesn't critical, hitting the area already weakened. Boom, done.

Suddenly having more than one vest and getting them repaired regularly becomes a priority! Yeah, I'm with you completely on that one. Not for everyone's game, but it makes life so much easier for me the GM -- I'm delegating my worries onto my players! Look how responsible they can be if their PCs' lives depend on it! :D

[Orlin]

In my view I'd let Dodge be an action, but it'd be Full Dodge; you get the TN bonus, you get Dodge benefit vs every attack, but you do nothing else. If you want to act/attack but want something to represent your agility evading stuff in a fight, then you get to single out one target which you roll a regular Dodge against, everything else can tag you, but at least you get to attack. For people asking how this effects being surrounded? Very easy, getting surrounded is now lethal -- avoid it. Further, it reintroduces movement and positioning again into the game (out-of-range is a very effective defense), which I always thought was crucial for cinematic play. The trick is to not get bogged down in movement rules, like you can in D&D.

I have an alternative solution, and one that is perhaps worthy of thought. In some games, it's possible to accrue an "Onslaught Penalty" for multiple attackers. The Game of Thrones d20 allows you to roll 1d20 and add what would ordinarily be your AC modifiers, but forces you to suffer a -2 for every additional attacker.

So, what you could do is say this: any character can dodge any attack, but only once. Every additional attacker forces the character who is under assault to suffer a -2 to their TN to Dodge. A middle of the road solution might be to allow a character to take any standard action, but start with a -2 penalty to all dodge rolls as a result, and make it cumulative. A character with an extraordinary agility (I'd say 9, maybe? That seems to be where they draw the line before Strength confers bonuses) or a Dodge skill of 4+ (sort of like Fighting) might not start with a penalty, whereas a character who had both high agility and high dodge might start with a bonus.

If you were to employ a variant such as this, I'd definitely recommend that the character be forced to take Dodge three separate times (one for each plane), but as you can see when you begin to make allowances for high agility, it gets tricky. The CD also presents a level of trickiness, as you could alter the rules so that they act as +1's or -1's and apply them to the CD.

Not getting bogged down in it becomes a little less tricky if you have a hex-map, some wet erase markers and a couple of miniatures -- but most people don't use these. I tried them out for my last In Nomine session and, apart from the considerable degree of difficulty when it comes to finding figures that work well enough to represent the characters, we had a blast. I don't use a hex-map for any old battle, but sometimes it's fun to build up a bunch of demons and bring them to life on a battle-map, and I find that it often forces PC's into astounding levels of cooperation.

Yes, yes they are normally 3 round bursts, but IN calculates them as 6 for ammo clip purposes. Not wanting to introduce more math I decided to go with their 6 round burst. However, I'm completely in favor of going to 3 round bursts. In the example above w/ 3 round bursts the damage comes down to more acceptable levels real fast. Instead of 42 damage it comes to 21, and instead of 18 prevented it comes down to 9. The result is a difference of 12 damage versus 24 per round -- a far more palatable result, especially in the light of melee monsters making 12 damage pretty easily. This might also bring down the lethality to levels you are more comfortable with.

After some thought, I really like this rule. The only thing I'm ambivalent about is whether or not a three-round burst should present a modifier to accuracy, or leave it be. Not having any personal experience with firearms makes this a difficult subject, but as I understand it, some weapons are probably liable to be smooth and easy to fire off, while others probably kick so hard they hurt.

How to statistically represent this is still a wild call...

[insert an interesting idea that had to be edited out for post length]

Oh to the dickens with it all, just halve the bullets used (assuming half are completely wasted) and roll a die equal to the remainder of bullets to see what hits. You'll hit someone eventually, so there's no real need to calculate TN or anything. Randomize the targets and distribute the spray damage rolls randomly. That saved so much more time! But remember, celestials always make crazy amounts of noise with full-auto! :D

Yes, this is a tough one. But what about this? I think it's fair to say we agree that when you fire a fully automatic weapon, one thing you gain is the ability to fire multiple bursts at single or multiple targets at the cost of accuracy and ammunition. So, here's an idea...

The attacker must first choose how many "burst shots" he wishes to make, (-1 penalty for each.) Afterward, the attacker must roll 1d6 to see how many extra three-round bursts he fires -- all of which miss, and strike inanimate objects for full damage. If this number would deplete his clip, it's depleted.

The GM can modify these for certain sets of circumstances (she might reduce the damage by a considerable fraction in a wide open field, for example) or the GM might just rule that if a Celestial fires off an automatic weapon, he makes so much disturbance that there's no need to calculate anything other than how long it will take before a third party enters the fight.

The attacker is granted the opportunity to strike at a single opponent, or at multiple targets, but he must sacrifice one of his predesignated attacks for every one-yard space between the targets he wants to strike. Additionally, any successful burst that strikes a target renders him prone, making him significantly more difficult to strike across long distances (apply any penalty that's appropriate.) The character may roll as many times as he has predesignated attacks, so an opponent who dodged one three round burst might get hit by a second roll.

For example...

The Soldier of God has an M-16 and two Infernal targets are standing one yard apart. The human has 10 "burst shots" or 30 rounds. His Precision is 5, his Ranged Weapon: Rifle is 4, so he rolls against TN 9. He decides to take 4 shots, suffering a -4 TN to each attack. (TN = 6.)

The Soldier rolls 1d6, and the number comes up a 4. So he (4 + 4 = 8) three round bursts, or 24 shots. This reduces his previously full clip to 6 rounds.

He can make four attacks, but the one yard space between the Infernals costs him 1 three-round burst.

The first roll is 2, 3, CD 5 - success. The target must dodge or suffer the damage of a three round burst.

The 1-yard space between the target costs one attack, but no roll needs to be made.

The third roll is 3, 4, CD 4 - failure. The recoil sends the bullets spraying upward or wherever the GM sees fit.

For the fourth roll, the Soldier spends 3 Essence, bringing his TN to 8. He adjusts the weapon and fires again, and succeeds. Both demons suffer one three-round burst, and must dodge accordingly or suffer damage.

If the first target had dodged, or failed, the Soldier could spend another of his four attacks on the first target and would still have an opportunity to roll against the second. If the first target dodged twice, the Soldier would have to choose between rolling a third attack or sacrificing his third attack to clear the one-yard distance between the two in order to roll his fourth attack against the second target.

This would make automatic weapons an incredible deterrent to Celestials, because the disturbance they generate would be enormous. On the other hand, Celestials could spend Essence to boost TN's, making them all the more dangerous with automatic weapons when the situation warrants it (the events of Fall of the Malakim, for example.) A GM might offer circumstantial bonuses for enclosed spaces or close ranges.

Unfortunately, this makes automatic weapons very serious, beastly tools, capable of dealing massive amounts of damage over incredibly wide areas. I doubt most GM's would approve of it -- but at least the disturbance would be so astronomical that few Celestials would even consider their use.

If anyone has suggestions to modify this, I'm all ears.

I dig this. Raises vessel and toughness value for low corporeal focused PCs. I really, really like it. Body HP of 9 is bad, but a high vessel or toughness buys enough time to run to safety. Good idea, thus I'm stealing it. *Yoink!* By the way, might I suggest Corp Forces + Vessel lvl + Toughness? ;)

That's a high form of flattery, sir! And initially, I had intended to write it out as CorF + Vessel + Toughness, but I had a sudden bout of doubt and couldn't remember whether or not a character could have both.

I really like the stun rules for In Nomine, so much so that Malakim of Zadkiel really bother me. There was a time when I'd considered tweaking her attunement so that Malakim of Protection simply added their CelF to the TN of any stun rolls, but ultimately I decided against it. I had to remind myself that even though CorF + Vessel + Toughness may seem like an extraordinarily low number for most PC's, it's better than automatic stun -- and if the game was designed for automatic stun, it seemed unfair to take that away from Malakim of Zadkiel, who were built to resist it.

But we'll see. Thanks, everyone, for your input!