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Old 11-22-2016, 01:34 PM   #1
VariousRen
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Default [Mass Combat] Equipment vs Training cost ratios

My group has come into some money and political support, and we're putting together a small TL2 army to act as guard for a mining camp in a goblin infested swamp. If there's ever a proper assault on the camp there will be enough people on both sides that we'll be using Mass Combat to resolve it.

These guards also may come up on a personal adventuring scale too. We may draw some of them off to assist us with other matters ("Phil and two of the guards on duty go to investigate the strange noise" kind of thing) so it would be nice to know exactly what they have. Because my character in charge of all the logistics of the forces I would get I get to decide what weapons and armour they get(As a player I love the lonely fun of making up armies, putting together equipment lists, counting all the gold coins it's going to cost).

If I'm putting together an equipment list for the guards I'd need to know how much cash each soldier gets in equipment and how much of the raise cost is training costs. For heavy infantry the raise cost is 40k for 10 soldiers, and they take 4 weeks to train. If we assume that the soldiers demand status 0 pay over those 4 weeks that's about $750, add another $250 signing bonus to make the math easy and conservative. That leaves 30k (3k per soldier) in equipment and other unaccounted costs. Is this a reasonable amount of cash left over from the raise cost to spend on equipment, or is there another cost that I am missing?
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Old 11-22-2016, 02:08 PM   #2
Jeraa
 
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Equipment vs Training cost ratios

The raise cost includes the cost to maintain that unit during the raising process.

Quote:
Cost to Raise (Raise)
This represents the combined cost of buying or making equipment (and animals, if any), recruiting manpower, and training the element – including maintaining it during training. It is paid just once. However, when replacing casualties,find the replacement cost by multiplying Raise by the percentage of casualties that need to be replaced.
That would cover the troops pay as well. So just subtract the cost to maintain the troops from the cost to raise them. That would give you how much it costs to train, equip, and recruit them. In this case, it would be 40k (to raise) - 8k (to maintain) = 32,000 to train, equip, and raise.

Now, elements average 10 men, but can have up to 15 men. So that number should be divided by the maximum of 15, not 10. That gives about $2133 per soldier to recruit, train, and equip the soldier. Part of that may be used to recruit the soldier (a bribe or bonus), part of it is used for training. Only some of that is actual equipment.

Last edited by Jeraa; 11-22-2016 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 11-22-2016, 06:26 PM   #3
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Equipment vs Training cost ratios

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Originally Posted by Jeraa View Post
The raise cost includes the cost to maintain that unit during the raising process.



That would cover the troops pay as well. So just subtract the cost to maintain the troops from the cost to raise them. That would give you how much it costs to train, equip, and recruit them. In this case, it would be 40k (to raise) - 8k (to maintain) = 32,000 to train, equip, and raise.

Now, elements average 10 men, but can have up to 15 men. So that number should be divided by the maximum of 15, not 10. That gives about $2133 per soldier to recruit, train, and equip the soldier. Part of that may be used to recruit the soldier (a bribe or bonus), part of it is used for training. Only some of that is actual equipment.
Important point! I'd say you actually have some discretion in terms of making the elements up of a few well-equipped soldiers or a larger number of guys with spears and helmets. As long as you stick to the budget, it should work out.

Maybe we pretend the trainer/trainers wants to be paid like they're one Status 1 person (representing a professional drill sergeant, a pair of retired veterans, or a small team of slaves/servants), and training equipment costs the same as what you spend to equip one soldier? So ten soldiers get paid $675, and I'm comfortable letting that cover recruitment unless you're trying to get farmers' sons to fight during harvest or planting season or something. The training staff want $1,350, which leaves $31,900 on equipment, split 11 ways (ten sets for soldiers, and one to train with). Somehow that works out to a fairly nice number to equip a soldier with: $2,900.

I'm sure you have this part under control, but I like the same sort of lonely fun, so here's what I'd want to start with.

Fine spear: $120; 4lbs
Javelin x3: $90, 6lbs
Medium shield, Heavy, No Boss and Metallic (see LTC2, p. 20): $175; 9lbs
Mail, Heavy (covering torso, skull and upper arms): $1,700; 26.5lbs

Wow, that comes to about $2,100 and 45.5lbs. If you assume your soldiers are at least ST 11, they're only lightly encumbered, and you've got another $800 to spend on them. Replace the spear with a thrusting broadsword? Why not? If you can assume your soldiers have at least ST 12 (which doesn't seem outlandish), they might even be able to handle a heavier shield; and they'll thank you for another point of DB.

Another question: if an element is ten people, can you take one or two with you on an adventure and leave the rest to function as a full unit? Tell you what, I'd roll against Administration with a penalty equal to the % of the element you're taking away times ten (so, if you take one person out of a squad of 10, -1). If you succeed, the rest manage to split their responsibilities and function without them, if you fail, I dunno, their TS is multiplied by % of remaining people (so 90%, in the above example).
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Old 11-22-2016, 06:40 PM   #4
VariousRen
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Default Re: [Mass Combat] Equipment vs Training cost ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post

I'm sure you have this part under control, but I like the same sort of lonely fun, so here's what I'd want to start with.

Fine spear: $120; 4lbs
Javelin x3: $90, 6lbs
Medium shield, Heavy, No Boss and Metallic (see LTC2, p. 20): $175; 9lbs
Mail, Heavy (covering torso, skull and upper arms): $1,700; 26.5lbs

Wow, that comes to about $2,100 and 45.5lbs. If you assume your soldiers are at least ST 11, they're only lightly encumbered, and you've got another $800 to spend on them. Replace the spear with a thrusting broadsword? Why not? If you can assume your soldiers have at least ST 12 (which doesn't seem outlandish), they might even be able to handle a heavier shield; and they'll thank you for another point of DB.
Heavy Infantry (~$3000 equipment each):
Medium/Light Segmented Plate set (DR 4 torso, DR 3 elsewhere) – $1900, 51lb
Large Light Shield (DB 3, DR 2, 18HP) – $68, 10lb
Balanced Spear (Thr + 2 imp, + 1 skill) – $200, 4lb
Balanced Javelin x 2 (Acc 3, Thr + 1 imp, + 1 skill) – $300, 4lb
Balanced Large Knife (+ 1 skill) – $200, 1lb
Total: $2668, 70lb (Medium encumbrance unless ST >= 14)

I went a little heavier with my set up, but it's interesting (and encouraging) to see we both came up with similar load outs. What surprised me is how well equipped normal professional troops end up being. We're TL2 so Fine doesn't give any damage bonuses, but making everything balanced seemed like a perfect way to spend cash. Really outlines the difference between soldiers and poor adventurers.
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Old 11-22-2016, 06:49 PM   #5
Anthony
 
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Equipment vs Training cost ratios

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Originally Posted by VariousRen View Post
That leaves 30k (3k per soldier) in equipment and other unaccounted costs. Is this a reasonable amount of cash left over from the raise cost to spend on equipment, or is there another cost that I am missing?
Yes. If you're hiring already trained soldiers, the recruiting bonus will likely be considerably higher, and if you're training the soldiers, you have to pay training costs (I have doubts about the ability to train soldiers in one month).

If you look at the Quality tables (mass combat p11-12), you can get a unit of Inferior troops for -50% to the raise cost. This tells us that no more than 50% of the total cost can be for gear. You can also get a unit of troops with Poor equipment for -25% to the raise and maintain cost, so no less than 25% of the total cost can be for gear. Splitting the difference, at $4,000 per unit of heavy infantry, $1,500 is for gear, $2,500 is the cost to raise, and maintenance includes $500 in wages and $300 in other types of supplies.
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Old 11-22-2016, 07:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Equipment vs Training cost ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by VariousRen View Post
We're TL2 so Fine doesn't give any damage bonuses, but making everything balanced seemed like a perfect way to spend cash. Really outlines the difference between soldiers and poor adventurers.
I'm looking at Fine on LT p. 59, and it seems to me like it should increase the damage of spears (or thrusting swords, if by some miracle you can afford a Fine sword) just fine regardless of TL. What am I missing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LT p.59
Fine†: -1 to odds of breakage; also +1 to damage for
any cutting or impaling weapon, or +20% to range for
a missile weapon. Projectiles, and crushing- or impaling-
only melee or thrown weapons: +2 CF. Fencing
weapons, knives, swords, and missile weapons: +3 CF.
Other cutting melee or thrown weapons: +9 CF.
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Old 11-22-2016, 07:11 PM   #7
VariousRen
 
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Equipment vs Training cost ratios

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
I'm looking at Fine on LT p. 59, and it seems to me like it should increase the damage of spears (or thrusting swords, if by some miracle you can afford a Fine sword) just fine regardless of TL. What am I missing?
Page 275 under weapon materials; Steel is a TL3 invention, iron doesn't get the damage bonus for being Fine, nor does bronze.
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Old 11-23-2016, 09:53 AM   #8
VariousRen
 
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Equipment vs Training cost ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Yes. If you're hiring already trained soldiers, the recruiting bonus will likely be considerably higher, and if you're training the soldiers, you have to pay training costs (I have doubts about the ability to train soldiers in one month).

If you look at the Quality tables (mass combat p11-12), you can get a unit of Inferior troops for -50% to the raise cost. This tells us that no more than 50% of the total cost can be for gear. You can also get a unit of troops with Poor equipment for -25% to the raise and maintain cost, so no less than 25% of the total cost can be for gear. Splitting the difference, at $4,000 per unit of heavy infantry, $1,500 is for gear, $2,500 is the cost to raise, and maintenance includes $500 in wages and $300 in other types of supplies.
Hmm, ya the cost breaks for inferior troops must indicate that that 50% of the raise cost is in attracting and paying people with previous useful experience (Which makes sense, you can't turn peasants into heavy infantry in 4 weeks of training). $1500 in gear makes sense too, I was finding it hard to spend $3000 on stuff without making it all Fine or Balanced (which now makes sense as the next equipment level). Cheap equipment seemed completely unneeded at the basic level, despite the book saying explicitly cheap equipment was common.

Finally, this explains why specific terrain training (Like jungle) only raises the Raise cost and not the maintenance. It costs a few extra hundred per troop to hire people with experience in jungles, but you aren't necessarily giving them special jungle equipment that would have to be maintained.
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