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Old 02-24-2013, 12:03 AM   #1
Sunrunners_Fire
 
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Default Insubstantiality and the Ter'ai Necromancer

The question today is: What value would you suggest for this modifier?

Insubstantiality
|-> Remains Substantial, -X%

Activate, become able to interact with same-type insubstantial things as if you were insubstantial while remaining substantial (and so retaining the ability to interact with same-type substantial things as if you were substantial; 'cause you are). Can't selectively ignore one or the other, but have to interact with both of them.

No vertical movement, can't walk through walls, can't ignore substantial attacks/hazards, makes noise, actually touches surfaces, can't walk on water, etc ...

I'm thinking -80% as it essentially guts Insubstantiality's function. What says the hivement?

Blessed (Ghost Weapon) {GURPS Monster Hunters 1, pg 23}
... doesn't do what I want it to do. It makes your weapons, all of your weapons, able to affect insubstantial demons and ghosts. It doesn't allow the insubstantial thingies to affect you, it doesn't let you affect non-demon and non-ghost insubstantial thingies and it only affects your weapons in any case.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:08 AM   #2
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and the Ter'ai Necromancer

so you want "affects insubstantial" on everything you do?

I'd stick "affects insubstantial" on your ST. You might even want to retroactively apply it to the 10 points you get for free. Thats 20 points of base insubstantial, plus 2 per point of ST you have. Note this doesn't make your sword effect them. just you personally.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:16 AM   #3
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and the Ter'ai Necromancer

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
so you want "affects insubstantial" on everything you do?

I'd stick "affects insubstantial" on your ST. You might even want to retroactively apply it to the 10 points you get for free. Thats 20 points of base insubstantial, plus 2 per point of ST you have. Note this doesn't make your sword effect them. just you personally.
Affects Insubstantial allows one-way interaction. You can affect them, but they can't affect you (absent them having Affects Substantial enhancement on the appropriate traits). The intent is to allow two-way interaction as a trait inherent to the character that doesn't depend on the insubstantial thingies having the ability to affect the substantial themselves.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:35 AM   #4
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and the Ter'ai Necromancer

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Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
Affects Insubstantial allows one-way interaction. You can affect them, but they can't affect you (absent them having Affects Substantial enhancement on the appropriate traits). The intent is to allow two-way interaction as a trait inherent to the character that doesn't depend on the insubstantial thingies having the ability to affect the substantial themselves.
I'm not reading it that way. Otherwise they couldn't parry or block your attacks, and I'm fairly sure the text would mention that powerful ability if it was the case.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:48 AM   #5
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and the Ter'ai Necromancer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
The question today is: What value would you suggest for this modifier?

Insubstantiality
|-> Remains Substantial, -X%

Activate, become able to interact with same-type insubstantial things as if you were insubstantial while remaining substantial (and so retaining the ability to interact with same-type substantial things as if you were substantial; 'cause you are). Can't selectively ignore one or the other, but have to interact with both of them.

No vertical movement, can't walk through walls, can't ignore substantial attacks/hazards, makes noise, actually touches surfaces, can't walk on water, etc ...

I'm thinking -80% as it essentially guts Insubstantiality's function. What says the hivement?

Blessed (Ghost Weapon) {GURPS Monster Hunters 1, pg 23}
... doesn't do what I want it to do. It makes your weapons, all of your weapons, able to affect insubstantial demons and ghosts. It doesn't allow the insubstantial thingies to affect you, it doesn't let you affect non-demon and non-ghost insubstantial thingies and it only affects your weapons in any case.
Sounds like Modifying Unarmed Attack from Power-Ups 4: Enhancements using Affect Substantial.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:48 AM   #6
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and the Ter'ai Necromancer

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I'm not reading it that way. Otherwise they couldn't parry or block your attacks, and I'm fairly sure the text would mention that powerful ability if it was the case.
Right. The insubstantial can defend appropriately against attacks with Affects Insubstantial. However, ST (Affects Insubstantial) wouldn't allow the insubstantial to attack the character. I want them to be able to do so without adding Affects Substantial to the insubstantial critter's templates.

The dead cannot touch the living. But ... they can interact with the necromancer as if it was one of the dead, even as the necromancer can interact with them. Yet the necromancers remain a part of the living world with all the normal interactions available to them.
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:03 AM   #7
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and the Ter'ai Necromancer

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Sounds like Modifying Unarmed Attack from Power-Ups 4: Enhancements using Affect Substantial.
Unfortunately, that wouldn't allow the insubstantial to treat the character as insubstantial for all intents and purposes (beneficial and otherwise). If I did it that way, then I'd have to create a disadvantage that allows the desired behavior and I'm not aware of any existing trait I could use as a guideline for pricing that one.

Its' not merely Affects Insubstantial, +20%. It is also Affected By Insubstantial, -X%.

Hence my desire for a single trait that enables the desired behavior rather than putting a global enhancement and a global limitation on the character sheet. (Given that I use multiplicative modifiers in my games ... Heh.)

Its' definitely an advantage to be able to act upon (and be acted upon by) both the substantial and insubstantial worlds as if one is native to both. Something of a disadvantage too, mind, but I'd expect it to come out to a net positive value; I wouldn't expect the modifiers to zero out each other.
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:11 AM   #8
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and the Ter'ai Necromancer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
Unfortunately, that wouldn't allow the insubstantial to treat the character as insubstantial for all intents and purposes (beneficial and otherwise). If I did it that way, then I'd have to create a disadvantage that allows the desired behavior and I'm not aware of any existing trait I could use as a guideline for pricing that one.

Its' not merely Affects Insubstantial, +20%. It is also Affected By Insubstantial, -X%.

Hence my desire for a single trait that enables the desired behavior rather than putting a global enhancement and a global limitation on the character sheet. (Given that I use multiplicative modifiers in my games ... Heh.)

Its' definitely an advantage to be able to act upon (and be acted upon by) both the substantial and insubstantial worlds as if one is native to both. Something of a disadvantage too, mind, but I'd expect it to come out to a net positive value; I wouldn't expect the modifiers to zero out each other.
Hmmm, what about Affects Substantial, Selective (+50%) or Affects Insubstantial, Selective (+30%) then?
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:48 AM   #9
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and the Ter'ai Necromancer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Hmmm, what about Affects Substantial, Selective (+50%) or Affects Insubstantial, Selective (+30%) then?
The desired behavior isn't selective, its' Always On. I didn't put the full build of the power in my initial post, only the portion of it that I wanted input on.

A necromancer doesn't have a choice as to whether it interacts with the dead, it simply does. They live in both worlds (substantial and insubstantial) simultaneously and without the ability to choose one or the other.

What they do, affects both the living and the dead. What the dead do, affects them for they are likewise dead. What the living do, affects them for they are likewise living. (The dead may not normally affect the living, nor may the living normally affect the dead.) A ghost-wall (insubstantial wall) will stop a necromancer's passage just as surely as a normal wall (substantial wall) will. A room flooded with ghost-waters will drown a necromancer just as surely as a room flooded with normal water will.

Its' not voluntary. It has its' downsides and it has its' upsides; with the intent that it be more up than down. But they can't turn it off.
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:57 AM   #10
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Default Re: Insubstantiality and the Ter'ai Necromancer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
The desired behavior isn't selective, its' Always On. I didn't put the full build of the power in my initial post, only the portion of it that I wanted input on.

A necromancer doesn't have a choice as to whether it interacts with the dead, it simply does. They live in both worlds (substantial and insubstantial) simultaneously and without the ability to choose one or the other.

What they do, affects both the living and the dead. What the dead do, affects them for they are likewise dead. What the living do, affects them for they are likewise living. (The dead may not normally affect the living, nor may the living normally affect the dead.) A ghost-wall (insubstantial wall) will stop a necromancer's passage just as surely as a normal wall (substantial wall) will. A room flooded with ghost-waters will drown a necromancer just as surely as a room flooded with normal water will.

Its' not voluntary. It has its' downsides and it has its' upsides; with the intent that it be more up than down. But they can't turn it off.
Ah-ha! That sort of sucks maybe Affects Insubstantial (Always On, -50%) (+10%). That said Affects Insubstantial says it affects all targets in addition to normal matter. So you'd probably just need the base enhancement.

Edit: I'm not trying to be obstinate but it seems that Affects Insubstantial seems to fit the bill. Add a quirk "Flesh of the Spectre" (or some such) if having other effects meant for ghosts also affects the necromancer.
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Last edited by Christopher R. Rice; 02-24-2013 at 02:12 AM.
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