KYOS and Battlesuits?

[Anthony]

Realistically speaking, it's a lot easier to just outright replace the wearer's muscles than to make them additive, because it eliminate syncing issues.

[rkbrown419]

I assumed battlesuits were like bows. The suit has a fixed Lifting and Strkikng ST score but is usually designed to be 10+ the expected wearers ST. A military might require minimum ST 11 so most suits would be produced Lifting and Striking ST 21. On the other hand an alien race with racial ST 15 would build suits with Lifting and Striking ST 25.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Realistically speaking, it's a lot easier to just outright replace the wearer's muscles than to make them additive, because it eliminate syncing issues.

Game balance wise making actual physical strength worthless has issues.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Game balance wise making actual physical strength worthless has issues.

Sure, but game balance wise you should just add strength and ignore reality entirely.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

If you're playing a game where superhumans are wearing battlesuits, then that's a valid choice because realism has already gone out the window. If you're playing a game without superhumans in battlesuits, then the bonus to ST (instead of replacing ST) causes bizarre anomalies.

It's up to you on what you do, but if realism is your goal, then battlesuits should replace ST. If you don't care about realism, battlesuits can augment ST. Neither is right, neither is wrong. They're just different ways of playing.

A Spartan equipped with a battlesuit in Transhuman Space isn't a case of realism going out the window. In fact it's one of the more realistic settings that features battlesuits and high-ST humanoids.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Realistically speaking, it's a lot easier to just outright replace the wearer's muscles than to make them additive, because it eliminate syncing issues.

The suit needs to copy your body movements anyway, so that the relevant skill is Battlesuit rather than Piloting (Mecha). The way I assume most battlesuits work, there are sensors on the inner surface that detect when, say, your arm moves, to move the suit in the same way. When faced with something the suit can't lift, you're going to be pressing against the suit with your own strength, in a manner not dissimilar to, say, pressing against the bottom of someone's hand to help them lift something. The suit is still trying to lift the object, and you are pushing against the suit, so it seems logical that you'd add your BL's together (just like you would if you're helping someone else lift something).
EDIT: Having the suit increase your Striking ST is a bit iffier, of course.

Maybe there are pitfalls in such an approach that I'm not seeing. Maybe it would be hard to sync movements without allowing for unsafe movements (like what happened to Hammer's unfortunate test pilot in Iron Man 2), but I'd expect a program installed on the suit's integral computer would be able to handle this. Indeed, in my design system you need a Complexity 1 program to properly control the suit.

Originally Posted by rkbrown419

I assumed battlesuits were like bows. The suit has a fixed Lifting and Strkikng ST score but is usually designed to be 10+ the expected wearers ST. A military might require minimum ST 11 so most suits would be produced Lifting and Striking ST 21. On the other hand an alien race with racial ST 15 would build suits with Lifting and Striking ST 25.

That's a decent way to balance it, but doesn't make any real physical sense. Adding BL at least makes some sense - the suit is assisting you - but realistically the "minimum ST" to use a battlesuit is basically going to be whatever the designers set it as, since in the end the suit is just reading your own movements and replicating them. The strength value of the suit itself is ultimately going to be independent of the wearer's strength.

A partial exception occurs when we observe that strength and size have some correlation, and a larger battlesuit can be stronger. If working under the assumptions from my design system - where battlesuits must be less than 2.5x as tall as the wearer (at 2.5x and larger, it's a mecha), a larger (and thus often - but not always - stronger) character can have a larger, stronger battlesuit than a smaller character can.

[Humabout]

I think the suit would have a rated Striking ST that it just outputs for striking regardless of the user's ST. It would also have a rated Lifting ST, the BL of which would be additive with the wearer's. That or the suit's ST is what the user has access to, the end.

I don't approach a simulationist game from the standpoint of "balance" because life isn't balanced or fair. It is what it is and if you don't want to pay 10 character points for ST as a player, then don't. That's your business. Don't complain when you need to schlep stuff the old fashioned way or get in a bar fight.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Humabout

I don't approach a simulationist game from the standpoint of "balance" because life isn't balanced or fair.

You shouldn't be using points then either.

[Daigoro]

This seems like it would have some real-world research already done on it for some reality-checking.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Humabout

I think the suit would have a rated Striking ST that it just outputs for striking regardless of the user's ST. It would also have a rated Lifting ST, the BL of which would be additive with the wearer's. That or the suit's ST is what the user has access to, the end.

I don't approach a simulationist game from the standpoint of "balance" because life isn't balanced or fair. It is what it is and if you don't want to pay 10 character points for ST as a player, then don't. That's your business. Don't complain when you need to schlep stuff the old fashioned way or get in a bar fight.

Originally Posted by Anthony

You shouldn't be using points then either.

I think for me if more the fact that ST just isn't as applicable or useful in some genres setting as others, and so if you make it less than 10cp per point that 10 cp will seem more 'fair', 'balanced' or 'right'.


But this is TBH a perennial topic. The reality is that unless you are going to reliably model the different value for all traits in all different contexts by adjusting their cost then taking it or not is matter of choice. And given we often can't agree on even the current abstract base line costs the chances for us all agree all these varied costs is not going to increase I think!


However this is (IMO) a can worms with far wider repercussions than just ST, it's just ST cost seems to be the goto example.


Is the ability to fire acc4 2d blasts of force at 100 yard ranges out your hands, while having inherent 10DR worth the same in:


a). A TL3 historical setting where DR 6 is generally about as good as it gets and is very expensive, and at most people will be firing back 1d+3 arrows back at you.

b). A TL11 space opera were DR50 personal forces fields are ubiquitous and cheap and they fire 6dx5 plasma bolts from pistols


i.e if we going to say 10pt per ST point is too much in TL11 because it's not as useful as it might be elsewhere, well OK but are we also going to drop the cost for zero G movement in TL3 campaign because zero gravity movement isn't likely to be that useful there?


At some point personal choice and perception of what's worth spending point on has to be the final judge. Just like it always is. Do we really need a system that calibrates every single possible trait to be cost adjusted to be balanced in all possible contexts. Personally I suggest that if you do it should be matter of GM sense. Especially as the specific GM is actually going to have a much better idea of exactly what TL11 hard Si-fi or TL3 low fantasy will actually look like at their table and thus what different traits will be worth in them. And that's actually not much different from me looking at a my player suggested character sheet that leans heavily into TL3 courtly romance and intrigue, when I know my TL3 campaign is actually going to be more about wilderness exploration and making camps.