[KYOS] Logarithmic thrust damage - a solution to The Brick Problem?

[CeeDub]

Salutations!

By now I am sure everyone knows of The Brick Problem™: Why can't Supers characters who can bench hundreds of tons not punch through a tank?

Knowing Your Own Strength from Pyramid #3-83 ("Alternate GURPS IV") changes lifting power to a logarithmic scale, i.e. for every 10 points of (Lifting) ST, basic lift is multiplied by 10. There are also improvements to thrust and swing damage, but nowhere near enough to solve The Brick Problem™. You could juggle tanks, but not punch through one.

So I thought, what if thrust damage also scaled logarithmically? At ST 10, thrust damage is 1d-2, for an average of 1.5 points of damage. At ST 20, it should therefore be an average of 15 points of damage. That gives us this formula: 1.5*10^((ST-10)/10)

ST     Avg DMG       Classic thr    KYOS thr     log thr
10      1.5           1d-2           1d-2         1d-2
11      1.9           1d-1           1d-1         1d-1
12      2.4           1d-1           1d           1d-1
13      3.0           1d             1d+1         1d
14      3.8           1d             1d+2         1d
15      4.7           1d+1           2d-1         1d+1
16      6.0           1d+1           2d           1d+2
17      7.5           1d+2           2d+1         2d
18      9.5           1d+2           2d+2         2d+2
19     11.9           2d-1           3d-1         3d+1
20     15.0           2d-1           3d           4d+1
21     18.9           2d             3d+1         5d+1
22     23.8           2d             3d+2         6d-1

As you can see, up to ST 16, which is generally accepted to be the upper limit for "normal" human strength, logarithmic thrust damage tracks classic thrust damage pretty well, so nothing is outright broken. No pressing need to apply classic thrust damage rules to normal characters and log thr rules to supers only. I wouldn't say it's outrageously out of whack when compared to KYOS thrust damage, either - at least up to ST 20.

Beyond that, well, that's where it's supposed to explode, isn't it?

Of course, if lifting AND thrust damage scale logarithmically, the pricing needs to be changed again. TBH, I haven't crunched the numbers here. One possible solution is to revert back to the Basic cost breakdown for ST: +1 HP [2]; Lifting ST +1 [3]; Striking ST +1 [5]. Or we adjust the KYOS breakdown (+1 HP [2]; Lifting ST +1 [7]; Striking ST +1 [1]) to 3, 5, or 7 CP per point of Striking ST, raising the cost of one level of overall ST to above 10 points.

What do you think - about the pricing and the idea in general?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by CeeDub

So I thought, what if thrust damage also scaled logarithmically?

The issue isn't that thrust damage can't go high enough; it's that thrust damage isn't linear in BL. Your formula is linear in BL.

Realistically, though, enough ST to lift a tank isn't enough to punch through it. If we reduced a tank in all dimensions by a factor of 20, it would weigh around 18 lb, which an ordinary person can lift, and its frontal armor would be something like 1" steel laminate, which will stop hits from .50 caliber rifles, let alone punches. The easy fix is to give your tank-smashing supers is to just give them higher ST.

[Anaraxes]

Or somewhat more exotic abilities, like IA punches with Armor Divisor. Just because a super-strong character punches tanks "with his bare hands" doesn't mean the attack has to be a Basic Set punch with damage coming off the mundane ST table.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by CeeDub

What do you think - about the pricing and the idea in general?

I could see this working well for certain types of campaigns.

One of the problems with GURPS melee weapon damage scales is that it conflates raw ST with ability to generate force. That's fixed using the Lifting ST/Striking ST mechanic, but, realistically, strong creatures who are capable of generating a lot of force be able to inflict a lot more damage, especially if they're using swinging weapons which are properly scaled to make maximum use of their strength and speed.

[AlexanderHowl]

Innate Attacks with Melee Attack can simulate the massive damage that Bricks are supposed to deal, and they are not that expensive. A 15d crushing attack with Melee Attack can just be a punch, kick, or any combination of unarmed attacks that cause massive damage.

[Jinumon]

Originally Posted by CeeDub

Salutations!
At ST 10, thrust damage is 1d-2, for an average of 1.5 points of damage.

Average damage at 1d-2 is 1.67, as damage can't go below 0. Can't go below 1 for non-crushing.

Jinumon

[Sam Baughn]

I like it. I tried to write up some house rules at one point with a similar idea and also added logarithmic HP, DR and innate attack damage, but then realised that I am unlikely to run a game where characters actually get far from normal human levels anyway and decided it wasn't worth actually finishing...

[Ottriman]

I myself consider logarithmic hp and damage along with lift essential these days. It just makes the scaling so much easier.

ST 10-20: Like KYOS but hp is +2 per ST over 10 up to 30 hp at ST 20.

Then for higher strengths, I find the damage based on the last digit such that it corresponds to one of ST 11-20, then I apply a multiplier. x3 for +10 or x10 for +20, applying the latter until only the former is left to apply.

If this result would produce less damage than is expected from the scaling below (such breakpoints mostly happening in the 1-3 last digit ranges) I can use "linear" (after accounting for multipliers) scaling to bump it up instead.

It really makes the scaling of strength from puny up into planet busting muscleman so much easier.

[Jack Sawyer]

Isn't physical strength IRL pretty darn complex? There are different kinds of muscle fibers and the way they work together/interact can differ as well (its not just the number that matter (look up 'muscle fiber recruitment') - it looks like you can define strength a number of ways with a number of tradeoffs.

So I think you have to consider the mechanisms involved. Some sort of magic/technobabble forcefield-assisted strength is probably the 'simplest' for correlation of lifting to damage or similar. And probably would help alleviate other problems related with certain high levels of strength, as well. (IIRC 'forcefields' was what they used to explain Superman's abilities some time back...)

Also a fist mostly made of squishier materials than the metal hull of a tank. That makes a difference too.

[Anthony]

A realistic punch by a moderately skilled person is around 35J. A realistic tank cannon is around 7,000,000. If we assume energy is linear in BL, that implies a person who punches like a tank cannon has a BL of 200,000x normal, or about 4,500. A 450d punch does an average of 1,575 damage; with brawling that goes up to 2,025. That will kill a tank just fine...