[Powers] Can you use an ability on default from it's talent?

[oneofmanynameless]

Assuming that you have the appropriate talent and the ability is a prebuilt ability of that power, could you attempt to use the ability on default from the talent? Would your talent benefit your skill rolls to do that?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

Assuming that you have the appropriate talent and the ability is a prebuilt ability of that power, could you attempt to use the ability on default from the talent? Would your talent benefit your skill rolls to do that?

In general, no. An ability is an advantage with modifiers. If you don't have the advantage you can't use it, and therefore you can't make an attribute or skill roll to use it.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

Assuming that you have the appropriate talent and the ability is a prebuilt ability of that power, could you attempt to use the ability on default from the talent? Would your talent benefit your skill rolls to do that?

By RAW? It doesn't say you can't use a Power Talent to default an ability part of that Power (and in some cases it makes sense). Since a Power Talent isn't related to defaulted powers you're always going to suffer the -2 penalty for different abilities. Since you're temporarily turning your Talent into something else you're not going to get the benefit from it. You could opt to use a lower level of Talent for improvising, of course. For example, if you have Heat/Fire Talent 4 [20] and want to improvise a 2d burning attack you could opt to use just two levels of your ability, take a -8 to your Will roll (-8 because it's worth 100% of the points of the improvised ability, -2 because it's dissimilar, and +2 from your Power Talent level), and get a +2 bonus on rolls to attack with it.

[Anaraxes]

Power Talents do not give you abilities. They give you a bonus to success rolls with abilities that you've purchased separately. If you bought an ability that was part of some power, yet for some reason didn't buy the skill that it needs, then the Talent would benefit that roll.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

By RAW? It doesn't say you can't use a Power Talent to default an ability part of that Power (and in some cases it makes sense). Since a Power Talent isn't related to defaulted powers you're always going to suffer the -2 penalty for different abilities. Since you're temporarily turning your Talent into something else you're not going to get the benefit from it. You could opt to use a lower level of Talent for improvising, of course. For example, if you have Heat/Fire Talent 4 [20] and want to improvise a 2d burning attack you could opt to use just two levels of your ability, take a -8 to your Will roll (-8 because it's worth 100% of the points of the improvised ability, -2 because it's dissimilar, and +2 from your Power Talent level), and get a +2 bonus on rolls to attack with it.

I would need to see the justification for that theorem.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I would need to see the justification for that theorem.

Pretty sure the words "uncontrived" and "relationship" says it all. A Power Talent is inherently part of a power and thus related. You're not going to really be able to do much - but it's great for those with latent powers. GURPS Psionic Powers has instances of leveled abilities and using defaults (as psionic techniques) where you don't use the whole value of the advantage.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Pretty sure the words "uncontrived" and "relationship" says it all. A Power Talent is inherently part of a power and thus related. You're not going to really be able to do much - but it's great for those with latent powers. GURPS Psionic Powers has instances of leveled abilities and using defaults (as psionic techniques) where you don't use the whole value of the advantage.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't establish the point at all as far as I can tell. Can you cite specific pages and books to establish the rules that permit this? And in particular, to establish how you get the -8 penalty?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I'm sorry, but that doesn't establish the point at all as far as I can tell. Can you cite specific pages and books to establish the rules that permit this? And in particular, to establish how you get the -8 penalty?

All of that is literally using Abilities at Default. If you don't know where those are it's in GURPS Powers (p. 173). (Which is curious because if you didn't know about the section on using Abilities at Default why did you comment on a thread that specifically cited those rules for the question it was regarding...?)

[spacemonkey]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

All of that is literally using Abilities at Default. If you don't know where those are it's in GURPS Powers (p. 173). (Which is curious because if you didn't know about the section on using Abilities at Default why did you comment on a thread that specifically cited those rules for the question it was regarding...?)

Probably because those rules disallow this. You have to have the power modifier on the ability you're looking to use as the default (P.173 Powers), and talents can't have modifiers of any kind (p.29 Powers). Thus, there's a strict answer no and you're saying yes.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

All of that is literally using Abilities at Default. If you don't know where those are it's in GURPS Powers (p. 173). (Which is curious because if you didn't know about the section on using Abilities at Default why did you comment on a thread that specifically cited those rules for the question it was regarding...?)

I don't think that's germane.

The OP asked about an ability defaulting from a Talent. The passage you cite is about an ability defaulting from another ability; for example, a power that creates light in an area (Create) or that creates dazzlingly bright light (Obscure) or that dazzles a specific foe (Affliction) might default to a laser beam attack (Innate Attack).

If the point value of Ability B is 100% of Ability A, then the roll to default is at -8. But a Talent cannot be an ability of a power! If you aren't defaulting to an ability of a power, then you don't have anything to roll against. Oh, I suppose you could say "I have 0 points in Innate Attack"; but then any ability you default to Innate Attack is *infinitely* greater, and the penalty is infinite. Or, in plain language, you can't get there from nowhere. No Talent can overcome an infinite penalty.