[LT/HT] Saps and Blackjacks

[jacobmuller]

Saps & Blackjacks for pulp era heroes
Has anyone redone them for their Pulp games or would the following suffice?
Axe/Mace skill (DX-5, Flail-4, or Two-Handed Axe/Mace-3)
Blackjack Sw Cr ST6
Sap Sw Cr (0.5) ST6
Both are Parry -1U, 3lb and cost $20.

I was reading a dark gritty book. A book abandoned by even the charity guys, who tossed it aside into the recycling skip; this book was almost out of luck. It had the kind of cover you don't notice; a book you only read when you've run out of options. I was out of options and Raymond Chandler makes good reading. To paraphrase "If I wanted to kill a guy, I'd hit him twice in the head with a sap."* And from Wiki: Blackjacks "are prohibited in most municipalities due to potential lethality".
For me, the sap/blackjack in GURPS Basic just doesn't fill the niche - I think it's meant to be a lead-shot filled, fist-sized brawling enhancement.
Raymond Chandler's Sap would be the spring handled, flat profile, leather covered baton. The equivalent Blackjack would be round profile. These are essentially Light Maces.

Oh, and just to check, that blow to the skull, is the Knockdown check @ -10 only for a Major Wound?

*In StarGate, two Zat hits will kill...

[vierasmarius]

I don't think I'd mess with the stats. It's skull hits themselves that are dangerous, not the sap by itself. People can be killed by a (un)lucky punch in the head, especially from behind. I would not give them swing damage. Note however that a blackjack with a cord can be swung as an improvised flail, probably treating it as a Life Preserver (sw-1 cr).

Also consider the manner in which saps are used: surprise attacks from behind. This is probably Telegraphic All-Out, either Dedicated or Strong depending on the skill of the user. An average ST man (thr 1d-2) skilled in Brawling (+1 dmg) making a Strong attack (+2 dmg) against the victim's skull will inflict 1d+1 cr, averaging 2.5 penetrating damage or 8-12 injury. A single such blow will almost certainly knock them out (likely causing some permanent damage as well) and two blows could kill outright. Even a slight increase in ST makes them much more dangerous too.

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

Oh, and just to check, that blow to the skull, is the Knockdown check @ -10 only for a Major Wound?

Correct. Any penetrating damage forces a Knockdown check, but it's only at -10 if it's also a Major Wound. Of course, with x4 injury even 2 penetrating damage will cause a Major Wound on even above average humans.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Also consider the manner in which saps are used: surprise attacks from behind. This is probably Telegraphic All-Out, either Dedicated or Strong depending on the skill of the user. An average ST man (thr 1d-2) skilled in Brawling (+1 dmg) making a Strong attack (+2 dmg) against the victim's skull will inflict 1d+1 cr, averaging 2.5 penetrating damage or 8-12 injury. A single such blow will almost certainly knock them out (likely causing some permanent damage as well) and two blows could kill outright. Even a slight increase in ST makes them much more dangerous too.

For that matter, one could easily sufficient between the lasting injury roll and full-dress Martial Arts internal bleeding.

[jacobmuller]

I get the lethality - 2 hits from the Sap, even with your skull counting as DR4, could result in -5xHP death.

I was trying to simulate these clubs:
Blackjack: a small, easily concealed club consisting of a leather-wrapped lead weight attached to the end of a leather-wrapped coil spring or rigid shaft.

Sap: a flat-profiled, leather-covered lead rod, fitted with a spring handle. The flat profile spreads its impact out over a broader area, making it less likely to break bone.

They're both about 8 inches long. Smaller than a small mace, leather covered to reduce damage (built in DR1), heavier and more awkward than a Baton but with more impact. The sap is designed to spread it's impact hence the armor mod of (0.5). And small knives get Sw damage.

The Basic sap seems more like a "beaver-tail" to me - basically a leather sock with a weight in it.

[Kromm]

The problem is one of terminology: there's a whole continuum of things called "baton," "blackjack," "cosh," "sap," etc. almost interchangeably – and those are just the English terms! These range from near-concealable fistloads up to full-length clubs. The stuff you're talking about encompasses the whole range from what GURPS calls a blackjack (thrust); through the thonged club or "life-preserver" (swing-1), the short baton (swing-1), and the baton, expandable baton, and short staff (all swing); to the shortest kind of knobbed club (sw+1). GURPS uses specific names as labels, to distinguish A from B, but you don't need to stick to these terms in the game world. Call any of those things by whatever term you like!

For reference, if a rigid shaft or coiled spring is involved, use baton or expandable baton stats. I'd be very skeptical of claims to "spread impact" . . . Most stem from dodgy arguments as to why policemen should be allowed to carry them for backup ("No, really, it smashes people up less! It's less lethal!"), not from reality.

[jacobmuller]

Originally Posted by Kromm

For reference, if a rigid shaft or coiled spring is involved, use baton or expandable baton stats. I'd be very skeptical of claims to "spread impact" . . . Most stem from dodgy arguments as to why policemen should be allowed to carry them for backup ("No, really, it smashes people up less! It's less lethal!"), not from reality.

Thank you!
kinda the blunt version of "knife":) Even Chandler appears to have used the word "sap" to cover a couple of items.

[fredtheobviouspseudonym]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

. . . I was reading a dark gritty book. A book abandoned by even the charity guys, who tossed it aside into the recycling skip; this book was almost out of luck. It had the kind of cover you don't notice; a book you only read when you've run out of options. I was out of options and Raymond Chandler makes good reading. . .

Nice faux Chandler. Have to ask -- did the book survive, or did it go where Zelda went?

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by fredtheobviouspseudonym

Nice faux Chandler. Have to ask -- did the book survive, or did it go where Zelda went?

Zelda is missing again? Oooo, that Ganon just won't give up. ;)

[jacobmuller]

Originally Posted by fredtheobviouspseudonym

Nice faux Chandler. Have to ask -- did the book survive, or did it go where Zelda went?

Thank you.
Actually, still reading it but, it's Final Destination cannot be denied.

It's going where all the other unwanted books go, into the big house, that damp, dark hellhole the money folk laughingly call a recycling facility. If it was only books like him, it'd be bad enough, lying there, crushed and rained on, waiting for the end, surrounded by sodden, shredded nothings.
But there's things in there, things that should not be! Beer cans, coke bottles, used nappies, brassieres, candles, pens, CDs.
It isn't enough that he has to share this stinking pit with fishing gazettes - there's even Gossip Rags in here!
All his fellow "reading material" is destined for the big one, the mill up't'road. In the end, they'll all become . . . Egg Cartons!