CM (No Mental Separation) = ATR (Mental only)?

[JCurwen3]

Is Compartmentalized Mind (No Mental Separation, -20%) equivalent to Altered Time Rate (Mental maneuvers only, -60%??)?

Basically, is CM with that limitation any different from ATR limited only for mental maneuvers? Does it provide any other benefit? I think they are the same, just checking.

[Lamech]

No. Take two builds "ATR (Mental only) 2", and "ATR (Mental Only) 1, CM (No mental Seperation) 1" One allows for two compartmentalized minds to take two actions a turn, the other allows for one mind to take three actions a turn. There are probably other fidly details that are different as well.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Lamech

No. Take two builds "ATR (Mental only) 2", and "ATR (Mental Only) 1, CM (No mental Seperation) 1" One allows for two compartmentalized minds to take two actions a turn, the other allows for one mind to take three actions a turn. There are probably other fidly details that are different as well.

Are you sure that's true? I wasn't aware the two advantages interacted. I read ATR 2 (Mental only) as saying 1 "anything" maneuver (the one everyone gets for free) and 2 extra mental maneuvers (from the 2 mental only ATR levels).

I read ATR 1 (Mental only) + CM (No mental separation) 1 as giving the same as above (the base "anything" free maneuver everyone gets, a level of ATR with mental only giving 1 extra mental maneuver, and a level of CM with no mental separation giving 1 extra mental maneuver as well).

Can you cite an official source that states that ATR levels add to the number of maneuvers per mind instead of per character?

If that were true, it'd seem to imply that other advantages (and disadvantages) might be inherently multiplied by ATR as well, like Regeneration (and Weakness) and others, and I'm fairly sure they're not affected. My reading is that ATR 1 (unmodified) + CM 1 (unmodified) gives, purely in terms of maneuvers available (because I know they both come with extras), 2 "anything" maneuvers and 1 mental-only maneuver. ATR 1 + Extra Attack 1 just gives 2 "anything" maneuvers and 1 extra attack-only maneuver, right?

[Gef]

I infer that ATR gives consecutive maneuvers and CM gives simultaneous maneuvers. It's not clear that concentrating faster is helpful in all cases, as maneuvers which depend on the reactions of slower characters forfeit the benefit of ATR, but they would not forfeit the benefit of CM, and furthermore actions that require sustained concentration would tie up a single compartment no matter how fast it thinks.

GEF

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Gef

I infer that ATR gives consecutive maneuvers and CM gives simultaneous maneuvers. It's not clear that concentrating faster is helpful in all cases, as maneuvers which depend on the reactions of slower characters forfeit the benefit of ATR, but they would not forfeit the benefit of CM, and furthermore actions that require sustained concentration would tie up a single compartment no matter how fast it thinks.

GEF

Aren't ATR extra maneuvers also "simultaneous" from the point of view of everyone else, as you get to take them all in the same turn? And you can tie up a single level of ATR by dedicating it to sustained concentration each turn too to maintain an ability, I'm pretty sure. If those things weren't true I'd argue for ATR to be worth less.

[Refplace]

I am pretty sure thet add not multiply.
ATR is not always the special effect of faster time and even when it is the cost is based on adding an additional maneuver per turn.
Having CM also just means you add ATR + CM rather then multiply ATR *CM

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I am pretty sure thet add not multiply.
ATR is not always the special effect of faster time and even when it is the cost is based on adding an additional maneuver per turn.
Having CM also just means you add ATR + CM rather then multiply ATR *CM

I thought so too, otherwise ATR would be a way to get extra CM levels for free.

So assuming ATR is additive, which I'm almost sure it is, what is the difference between a character with ATR (For mental maneuvers only) and CM (No Mental Separation)? The latter limitation for CM from Psionic Powers makes all the "compartments" aspects of the subconscious of the same mind, so it effectively removes the benefit that one compartment may be possessed or mind controlled or such and the others are still free. I'm just trying to do a crowd-sourced sanity check that the two things are functionally identical.

[Anaraxes]

I suspect they're intended to be the same.

However, there's still at least one subtle difference between doing two things in the same second (ATR) and being able to do two things at the same time (CM). Those might be equivalent when you're trying to do one task twice as fast. But if you're trying to do two different tasks, they're not the same.

Consider an ability that requires continuous Concentrate maneuvers to keep active. The ATR character still has to take an unbroken series of Concentrates, or drop the power when he shifts his attention. He may be burning through twice as many maneuvers as normal, but each maneuver isn't making progress toward a goal, so that's irrelevant. It's the continuity that matters. The CM character can have one compartment Concentrating while the other does something else. No Mental Separation explicitly removes the multiple defense -- and nothing else, given its text.

You can invent other scenarios to illustrate the point. Let's say I've just triggered a trap in the ancient template, and the giant stone sphere is about to obliterate the inscription I came to find. With CM, I can TK the sphere in place while deciphering the mystery. With ATR, I can push the ball, then try to work on the text, then push the ball again. At the least, the second method seems distracting; requires more TK power, too, as you have to keep stopping the ball and pushing it upslope, instead of just holding it in place.

A related Krommquote:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...1&postcount=55
Note the three caveats:
- wholly mental
- dependent entirely on your internal clock
- not dependent on any external reaction

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

You can invent other scenarios to illustrate the point. Let's say I've just triggered a trap in the ancient template, and the giant stone sphere is about to obliterate the inscription I came to find. With CM, I can TK the sphere in place while deciphering the mystery. With ATR, I can push the ball, then try to work on the text, then push the ball again. At the least, the second method seems distracting; requires more TK power, too, as you have to keep stopping the ball and pushing it upslope, instead of just holding it in place.

A related Krommquote:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...1&postcount=55
Note the three caveats:
- wholly mental
- dependent entirely on your internal clock
- not dependent on any external reaction

Actually using your TK as an example with CM you effectively duplicated your TK. This means you can add the ST together to hold a heavier object or hold two separate ones at the same time.
Also lets say your casting a spell. CM lets you work on a long spell while doing something else. ATR does not give you that benefit since you have to keep concentrating, however it would let you cast it faster since your doing more concentrates in a shorter time. Assuming the Gm in this case does not say it means actual seconds and turns or the powers your conjuring ant understand you and the spell fails.

[Lamech]

Another thing to note with ATR, you can only take one "full turn action" (or whatever) each second, while CM I think gets two. (Strangely concentrate maneuvers are one example).

On ATR and CM multiplying. Of course they do. If you experience twice as much time you can do twice as much stuff. Also "Each mind – or “compartment” – functions independently and at full capability." So if one mind gets the benefit of ATR the other one does so as well. Plus not multiplying would give non-nonsensical results when one compartment is taken over, who gets the extra action?