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Old 12-04-2018, 10:55 AM   #11
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
The XP cost difference still maintains this tradeoff if you allow IQ to generate talent points after creation so it's just as healthy.

It basically stretches "creation time" out to 36 points. After that, it's more expensive for an attribute point than a talent point.
This is true, but I feel constitutes a form of 'grade inflation'. Drift in the speed of advance and overall power level is common to pretty much all games (e.g., the classic example of deranged munchkinism in 1EAD+D's Unearthed Arcana). In my experience, TFT is at its best when all the humanoids on the map are broadly similar in ability and only modestly advanced beyond the capacities of a starting player character. For this reason, I resist all house-rule changes that accelerate advancement.
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Old 12-04-2018, 01:13 PM   #12
Wayne
 
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

Hi,

I really think this is something Guy or Steve need to comment on.

The debate has been ongoing for months now.

Wayne
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Old 12-04-2018, 02:00 PM   #13
hcobb
 
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

This is clearly written on page 17:

"After character creation, further talents may be learned by spending XP"

"To learn more spells or talents, she must earn and spend XP."

In order to argue that IQ increases give bonus skill points you must assert that the "further" in the first sentence means beyond the "bonus" skill points equal to the current IQ and also that the second sentence implies "... spend XP to increase IQ and/or buy additional skill points above the current IQ level."
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Old 12-04-2018, 02:38 PM   #14
Wayne
 
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

I know thats what it says and yet the debate continues because of the initial association of 1 IQ = 1 spell or talent point.
I argued at the time that an extra sentence should be included for clarification on both page 17 and 45.

Im not pushing an agenda, BTW, Im happy with either understanding
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Old 12-04-2018, 02:46 PM   #15
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

For me, it comes down to the kind of game you want to run/play. It may indeed be the intent of the revised language in ITL to separate the post-creation aquisition of talents and spells from IQ increases, but I personally disagree with that approach.

As I stated in an older thread on this topic, linking a character's IQ to talents/spells is one of most genius aspects of Steve Jackson's original design. In a rules-lite system like TFT, each stat must cover multiple character attributes and Steve's solution to this challenge was balanced and elegant. To divest talents from IQ risks unbalancing other elements of the system (like XP) which seems to be supported by the debate in several of the threads on these forums.

And as Skarg alluded to, the original rules never allowed you to suddenly learn a new talents when IQ increased. Talents had to 'studied' ahead of time, planned for by the player in advance of their aquisition and I agree that those rules must also be used if you will be keeping the dependency between talents/spells and IQ.
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Old 12-04-2018, 02:59 PM   #16
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

The RAW seem clear to me. I'd be surprised if a 'clarification' from the author changed anything. My advice is to change it if that's what you really, really want to do...but try to talk yourself out of it. The debated change is just a give-away of a few hundred XP worth of benefits. To what end?
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Old 12-04-2018, 03:33 PM   #17
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
The RAW seem clear to me. I'd be surprised if a 'clarification' from the author changed anything. My advice is to change it if that's what you really, really want to do...but try to talk yourself out of it. The debated change is just a give-away of a few hundred XP worth of benefits. To what end?
Given the fairly glacial rate at which characters now earn XP per RAW, that few hundred XP will delay advancement at least several sessions if not more.
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Old 12-04-2018, 03:53 PM   #18
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
The debated change is just a give-away of a few hundred XP worth of benefits. To what end?
The current rules give away 500 XP for each starting IQ point. That's like having wizards and monks start three levels higher than the fighters start in AD&D.
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Old 12-04-2018, 07:34 PM   #19
platimus
 
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

The intent of the rules seems pretty clear to me. Most (not all) who say it isn't clear seem to be people that don't like the change and want their house-ruling to get officially sanctioned. People are going to do what they want to do anyway, so I don't see any point in Steve or Guy coming in here and telling us what we should do. Which ever way they rule, one side of the debate will say "pff! not at my table!" It seems like a lose/lose situation for them to issue a proclamation.

That said, I don't have a problem playing it either way at someone else's table. I plan to play it as-written but if I feel like players aren't acquiring enough talents/spells, I'll house-rule that +IQ = +talent point.
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Old 12-05-2018, 12:35 AM   #20
Skarg
 
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
The current rules give away 500 XP for each starting IQ point.
500 XP per IQ point plus 500 more XP per spell that doesn't use another IQ point, e.g. Staff II or 4-hex Illusion.
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