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Old 11-23-2018, 09:02 AM   #11
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Towering main-gauche

I'm having a change of heart about the original question. After poking around a bit in the rule book I was reminded that the intent is a Main Gauche provides its protection even when you use it to make a left handed attack (at least, that is clearly the wording if not the real intent). This implies that you should be adding base protection to anything else you do with it.
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Old 11-23-2018, 09:52 PM   #12
platimus
 
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Default Re: Towering main-gauche

I didn't weigh-in before because there already seemed to be consensus but...

It seems to me that the main-gauche "armor" of 1 point would not stack with the Two-Weapon "armor" of 2 points. I'd use the higher of the two, which is the Two-weapon's 2 points.

I don't see why a fighter with Two-Weapon talent wielding two short-swords would get less protection than a fighter with Two-Weapon talent wielding a main-gauche and a short sword.

The Two-Weapon talent even mentions that you don't need the Two-Weapon talent to use a main-gauche in the off-hand.
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Old 11-24-2018, 09:28 AM   #13
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Towering main-gauche

That was my first instinct as well, but consider that a main gauche has a -1 DX adjustment (the price of entry for a small shield that is also a decent off handed weapon). And, you are apparently supposed to keep the 1 pt armor bonus when you use it to attack. Taken together, I think this means they should stack. I.e., why should a main gauche be actually worse as an off handed parrying weapon? If you are paying the -1 DX penalty and don't get that 1 pt protection in exchange then that's what it amounts to.
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Old 11-24-2018, 12:05 PM   #14
platimus
 
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Default Re: Towering main-gauche

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
That was my first instinct as well, but consider that a main gauche has a -1 DX adjustment (the price of entry for a small shield that is also a decent off handed weapon). And, you are apparently supposed to keep the 1 pt armor bonus when you use it to attack. Taken together, I think this means they should stack. I.e., why should a main gauche be actually worse as an off handed parrying weapon? If you are paying the -1 DX penalty and don't get that 1 pt protection in exchange then that's what it amounts to.
Maybe I'm missing something but you're still getting the 1 point of "armor" with my ruling -- plus an additional point because of the Two-Weapon talent for a total of 2 points of armor. It's still an improvement.
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Old 11-24-2018, 02:51 PM   #15
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Towering main-gauche

By your suggestion, a short sword or dagger (or hand axe or hammer or whatever) as off handed weapon gives you 2 pts of protection with no DX penalty, whereas a Main Gauche something designed for this purpose gives you the same 2 pts of protection but with a -1 DX penalty. The Main Gauche is obviously the inferior option in this case.
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Old 11-24-2018, 11:02 PM   #16
platimus
 
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Default Re: Towering main-gauche

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
By your suggestion, a short sword or dagger (or hand axe or hammer or whatever) as off handed weapon gives you 2 pts of protection with no DX penalty
No, that is not my suggestion. That is the Two-Weapon talent as written.

Quote:
...whereas a Main Gauche something designed for this purpose gives you the same 2 pts of protection but with a -1 DX penalty. The Main Gauche is obviously the inferior option in this case.
I think we might have had a misunderstanding there. Or at least I have. Where is this -1 DX penalty for holding a main-gauche coming from? I can't find it in the rules.

I agree that the main-gauche is the inferior option when it comes to stopping hits. That's one of the reasons I don't think it should stack with the Two-Weapon 2-points of hit-stopping. If you want to combine the 1 point stoppage of the main-gauche and the 2-point stoppage of Two-weapon (for a total of 3-point stoppage) as a house-rule, go for it. That does not seem to be the intent of the RAW to me though.

EDIT
I actually feel like I'm being generous by allowing the main-gauche to stop 2 hits with Fencer or Two-Weapon. The more I read the rules, main-gauche would only stop 1 hit no matter what, RAW. (see Anaraxes post)
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Last edited by platimus; 11-24-2018 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 11-24-2018, 11:20 PM   #17
platimus
 
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Default Re: Towering main-gauche

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
That was my first instinct as well, but consider that a main gauche has a -1 DX adjustment (the price of entry for a small shield that is also a decent off handed weapon). And, you are apparently supposed to keep the 1 pt armor bonus when you use it to attack. Taken together, I think this means they should stack. I.e., why should a main gauche be actually worse as an off handed parrying weapon? If you are paying the -1 DX penalty and don't get that 1 pt protection in exchange then that's what it amounts to.
According to the Weapons and Armor tables, a small shield has a 0 DX penalty. All the other DX- entries in the table are preceded by a negative sign. The main-gauche entry lacks the negative sign. Perhaps this is an errata. However, I can't imagine why a main-gauche would have -1 DX penalty when a dagger and small shield have a 0 DX penalty. Neither can I imagine why holding a main-gauche would increase one's DX. I'm inclined to believe that (positive) 1 should be a 0. That's how I will treat it at any rate.
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Old 11-25-2018, 10:06 AM   #18
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Towering main-gauche

The main gauche is intended to have a -1 DX modifier; there is a typo in the weapon tables (no - sign), but this was the written rule in the original Advanced Melee and, like most things, was reproduced in the new edition. Confusingly, no DX penalty is imposed in Melee - this appears in Advanced Melee (both in the old and new editions).

Edit: Here is a breakdown of how the Main Gauche has been treated:
Original Melee: -2 DX when used as 1 pt shield; -4 DX when used as shield and to deliver a second attack
Original Advanced Melee: Text says -1 DX when used as 1 pt shield, -4 as shield+attack, but tables still say -2/-4
New Melee: No DX penalty listed or stated when used as shield; -4 when used as shield + attack
New TFT: "1" (it seems most likely to me this means '-1') as shield; -4 as shield + attack

All written descriptions make it clear you get to keep the shield bonus when you use it to make a second attack.

Last edited by larsdangly; 11-25-2018 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 11-25-2018, 10:33 AM   #19
platimus
 
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Default Re: Towering main-gauche

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
The main gauche is intended to have a -1 DX modifier; there is a typo in the weapon tables (no - sign), but this was the written rule in the original Advanced Melee and, like most things, was reproduced in the new edition. Confusingly, no DX penalty is imposed in Melee - this appears in Advanced Melee (both in the old and new editions).

Edit: Here is a breakdown of how the Main Gauche has been treated:
Original Melee: -2 DX when used as 1 pt shield; -4 DX when used as shield and to deliver a second attack
Original Advanced Melee: Text says -1 DX when used as 1 pt shield, -4 as shield+attack, but tables still say -2/-4
New Melee: No DX penalty listed or stated when used as shield; -4 when used as shield + attack
New TFT: "1" (it seems most likely to me this means '-1') as shield; -4 as shield + attack
Thanks for clearing that up. I believe in original Melee/AM, a small shield also had a -1 DX penalty. Now they don't. I agree with that and therefore think the main-gauche should also have a 0 DX penalty. That is how I will play it.

I still think (RAW) that I'm being generous by allowing the main-gauche to stop 2 hits with the Fencer or Two-Weapon talent. But if you are playing with the -1 DX penalty still intact under those circumstances, letting it stack to 3 hits seems reasonable but barely so. I would drop the -1 DX penalty as part of Fencer or Two-Weapon ability and still only allow 2 hits to be stopped. But that's just me.
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Last edited by platimus; 11-25-2018 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 11-25-2018, 10:36 AM   #20
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Towering main-gauche

The Main-gauche was historically the thing to carry alongside a rapier. Why did it displace the small shield if it is somehow more encumbering for the same or less protection?

Also, what happens to the rapier and cestus user?
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