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Old 09-30-2013, 09:08 PM   #71
DouglasCole
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Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
Id love some advice to be shown on 'how to avoid being grappled' not just on 'how to win via grappling', for those people who primarily prefer to inflict death upon there foes with say guns, swords, or spells but have to face the very real threat of grappling
Hrm. Maybe start here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE

:-)
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Old 09-30-2013, 09:08 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
Id love some advice to be shown on 'how to avoid being grappled' not just on 'how to win via grappling', for those people who primarily prefer to inflict death upon there foes with say guns, swords, or spells but have to face the very real threat of grappling
Technical Grappling doesn't really change much there, you can still dodge, block, or parry the initial grab and you can still Retreat when you do so. The parry option has the added bonus of possibly inflicting a free hit on the grappler's limb.
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Old 09-30-2013, 09:30 PM   #73
DouglasCole
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Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
Id love some advice to be shown on 'how to avoid being grappled' not just on 'how to win via grappling', for those people who primarily prefer to inflict death upon there foes with say guns, swords, or spells but have to face the very real threat of grappling
Sir Pudding is right about that the rules haven't changed much. The real differences in TG (in brief) come from its shift to Trained ST and, of course, the presence of Control Points and the attendant variable penalties.

But if someone tries to grapple you, you're still left with the same rules as presented in Basic and Martial Arts. it's an attack, and you can Dodge, Block, or Parry.

Honestly, the issue I've had - in play - is that the very many options to defend against grapples and Actions After a Grapple means they don't work very well.
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Old 09-30-2013, 10:35 PM   #74
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Sir Pudding is right about that the rules haven't changed much. The real differences in TG (in brief) come from its shift to Trained ST and, of course, the presence of Control Points and the attendant variable penalties.

But if someone tries to grapple you, you're still left with the same rules as presented in Basic and Martial Arts. it's an attack, and you can Dodge, Block, or Parry.

Honestly, the issue I've had - in play - is that the very many options to defend against grapples and Actions After a Grapple means they don't work very well.
You know what we need? A quick look up chart of what you can do with the regular rules and what TG adds.
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Old 09-30-2013, 11:01 PM   #75
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I game out an example match between two low-point-value characters (52 points) to show how the system is supposed to work.

The choices might not be the most optimal for all fighters, but the fight shows some of the emergent detail of the system.
As an old judoka I find it hard to believe a judo practitioner's "basic strategy is to try and remain standing."

Try to be the one doing the takedown so you have an advantage when you get there, but get the fight on the ground as soon as possible. Is the basic strategy of judo and jujitsu.
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Old 10-01-2013, 05:49 AM   #76
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As an old judoka I find it hard to believe a judo practitioner's "basic strategy is to try and remain standing."

Try to be the one doing the takedown so you have an advantage when you get there, but get the fight on the ground as soon as possible. Is the basic strategy of judo and jujitsu.
Ah, true! But he's not either a "Judoka" or a "jujitsu practitioner." He's "a guy with only Judo and nothing else."

If you look at the writeup of BJJ in Martial Arts, the realistic skills are both Judo and Wrestling, Techniques include Ground Fighting, all the locks, and Low Fighting! Basically a combination of both fighters. Jiu-Jitsu (not BJJ) has Judo and Karate, with Ground Fighting as an optional skill only, so the basic style is stand-up based. Judo itself (p. 166) is Judo Sport, Ground Fighting, Technique Mastery (Judo Throw and Sacrifice Throw), which has a solid ground fighting basis.

The builds at play are, as I say in the intro, are not optimized. Technical Grappling rewards skill depth, as does Martial Arts, as does real life. These one-skill wonders suffer badly from

* The wrestler is pretty incompetent against strikes
* The Judo-skill guy is incompetent on the ground

It's a mistake, though a common one, to associate the GURPS skill names with styles of similar name. In this case, I made a dedicated ground fighter and a dedicated standup fighter, on about 52 points.

Next time, I will take a couple actual stylists built on 100 points.
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Last edited by DouglasCole; 10-01-2013 at 05:53 AM.
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Old 10-01-2013, 06:09 AM   #77
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You seem worried about Feints and meta-knowledge. How about using the 'roll dice before attack' fix?
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Old 10-01-2013, 06:09 AM   #78
DouglasCole
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Originally Posted by Purple Haze View Post
As an old judoka I find it hard to believe a judo practitioner's "basic strategy is to try and remain standing."

Try to be the one doing the takedown so you have an advantage when you get there, but get the fight on the ground as soon as possible. Is the basic strategy of judo and jujitsu.
I found your point worth dealing with, so I amended the post with your comment and my reply. Thanks!
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:19 AM   #79
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Awesome! Thanks.

So, trying to interpret the stuff that happens, it would go something like this: Lerr shoots for a single, Doka does a Tawara Gaeshi and ends up on top with Lerr in a weak half guard. Lerr goes to a proper deep half, Doka tries but fails to drop his knee on Lerr's face (I struggle to see how he could do a real kick while basing on the grappled leg). Lerr finishes with a kneebar.

It's mostly pretty understandable. The only place where I felt I had to do much interpretation was the position after the sacrifice throw and with the kick. I like it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Haze View Post
As an old judoka I find it hard to believe a judo practitioner's "basic strategy is to try and remain standing."

Try to be the one doing the takedown so you have an advantage when you get there, but get the fight on the ground as soon as possible. Is the basic strategy of judo and jujitsu.
I'm kind of with Cole here, and I don't think it's unrealistic to have a judoka with relatively poor ne waza these days (or BJJ guys with poor takedowns, for that matter). If these two competitors know each other, and are playing to win, staying standing makes sense for the guy with Judo.

It depends on the rules and context of the match, though. I've seen a judoka compete in the BJJ blackbelt division, and his basic strategy was get grips, throw for points, get the hell away before being leglocked or caught in some funky guard he didn't know about, and then rinse and repeat for points. I've seen pure wrestlers do the same.

I'm sure his game will (or has) change once he gets more comfortable with the extended ground game. But in this competition, he had done enough of it to know that engaging on the ground was a less favourable matchup than remaining standing.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:27 AM   #80
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BTW, another example that would probably be interesting is an MMA match, i.e. where participants are free to pick a training of striking and/or grappling, and see if the in-game optimisation mimicks the RW one.

Oh, and looking at the different possibilities for people with fewer points spent on training would be interesting too - e.g. self-defence course graduates, beginner martial artists, conscripts with only minimal close combat training etc.

Third, non-human combats, such as space cat vs. astropus, enemy crab vs. centipede, T-1000 vs. Ahnold, elephant vs. cinematic strongman (or two) etc.
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