What does a computer really do for you?

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I would suggest that your grandfather-in-law possess TL7 skills and Computer Operation/TL7 at default (meaning that he suffers an additional -5 penalty when attempting a Computer Operation/TL8 task), your father possesses TL8 skills and Computer Operation/TL8 at default, and you possess TL8 skills and Computer Operation/TL8 at IQ+2 (and possible Computer Programming/TL8 at IQ+2, depending on your expertise).

Exactly.

Suppose all of you have IQ 12. A virus appears. Let's say that getting rid of it is an average task to simplify things.

For your grand-father, the effective skill is 3. He could try something but only by luck. And since he is bright, he wont. He will probably call for help.

For your father, it is 8. He has one chance in four to find the solution. He can try something before calling help.

For me, IQ 11, and an amateur level, it is about one chance in two.

And you, with your effective level of 14, you will find the solution (unless being very unlucky: that §×€¥ virus was much more hard that you first thought).

It really makes sense.

[Bengt]

Originally Posted by Gollum

I'm good at searching things on the web. But my brother is far much better than me. When I don't find something, he does. Why? Just because he is a computer scientist and a librarian. So, in GURPS terms, he has got Computer Operation and Research at level 12 or better. I don't. I'm just an amateur in both. 10, at best.

I think that having use of computer tools be included in the Research skill (and a lot of other skills) for TLs where computers are ubiquitous gives a much better representation of reality. Under your interpretation someone can't be really good a research using a computer without also being really good at maintaining computers, which I find quite ludicrous. The world is brimming with people who routinely use computers as tools for other skills, yet are pretty helpless when something goes wrong. So having computer-as-a-tool in some way be dependent on Computer Operations skill gives weird results IMO.

People who are only good a Research/Accounting/whatever using books can be modelled with a lower TL skill. I guess this would mean slapping a TL on some skills that doesn't have them now, but I think the end result is better.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Bengt

I think that having use of computer tools be included in the Research skill (and a lot of other skills) for TLs where computers are ubiquitous gives a much better representation of reality. Under your interpretation someone can't be really good a research using a computer without also being really good at maintaining computers, which I find quite ludicrous.

And I perfectly do agree with you!

Sorry to have been so unclear in my last posts, but I'm not at all wanting to mean that someone without Computer Operation cannot use Research. At TL8, as you noted it, a computer is required and so, those who have Research know how to use a research engine. Exactly as Accounting/TL8 requires the use of an accountong program.

I'm just speaking about someone who wants to get an edge with his computer. Which is the topic of that thread. Someone who will use his knowledge of computers to improve his Research, to go where someone else won't necessary think to go, to do what ordinary people won't necessary know, brief, to get a bonus to his Research roll thanks to the Complementary Skills rule.

Using the Complementary Skills to make a Research (for Accounting, Astronomy, or any other skill) is not a mandatory. It is exactly as Acrobatics, for Dodge. You can try it, even if you only have the default level, but you can still dodge without doing any acrobatics.

So, someone who only wants to make the research, normally, just uses his Research skill. Which means in reality that he uses a research engine he knows well and don't try anything else. As long as there is no problem (the computer he uses is maintained by someone skilled) things will go well for him and he will go as far as his Research skill can bring him.

But my brother has Computer Operation at a high level. He can use all the advantages the computer gives him. And he knows how the web works very well too. So, compared to the former character who only uses Research, he will probably go farer.

Note that the bonus is not huge. +1 (+2 in case of critical success). But it can still make a difference.

That is what I wanted to mean, hoping it is more clear now.

[Gollum]

So, to come back to the main topic of that thread (what does a computer really do for you?), I would answer ...

A modern laptop gives you a huge universal library (the Web), allows you to communicate with others (mails, internet telephone and visioconference), to communicate files, to record sounds, to take photos, etc.

Thanks to its powerful calculation ability, if you are skilled in Computer Operation, you can also use its softs to get a bonus to other skills (with the Complementary Skills rule).

And if you are a very good computer scientist (Computer Programming, Computer Hacking), you can even do what others cannot do, like taking control of a connected car (some hackers did it!). With all those connected things everywhere, the sky becomes the limit.

But, then, be sure to have a laptop solid enough to block bullets. You will rapidly get a lot of foes!

[(E)]

Originally Posted by Gollum

So, to come back to the main topic of that thread (what does a computer really do for you?), I would answer ...

A modern laptop gives you a huge universal library (the Web), allows you to communicate with others (mails, internet telephone and visioconference), to communicate files, to record sounds, to take photos, etc.

Thanks to its powerful calculation ability, if you are skilled in Computer Operation, you can also use its softs to get a bonus to other skills (with the Complementary Skills rule).

And if you are a very good computer scientist (Computer Programming, Computer Hacking), you can even do what others cannot do, like taking control of a connected car (some hackers did it!). With all those connected things everywhere, the sky becomes the limit.

But, then, be sure to have a laptop solid enough to block bullets. You will rapidly get a lot of foes!

While to some extent this is semantics, there are two different pieces of technology being used. One is the device (laptop etc), the other is the internet (and all the services available there in). I work in an area with intermittent coverage and it is very obvious how limited a device can be when coverage is lost. Phones for example don't have radio functionality any more and the GPS functions frequently require apps that rely on server data.

[Gollum]

It's not semantic. You need the web for a lot of things.

Having said that Computer Operation can still be used for a lot of things without internet.

Someone who knows very well how to use Excell, for instance, can easily get a bonus for Accounting or any other skill which requires calculation.

And you can also have already downloaded data which can be considered as a more or less good library.

[AlexanderHowl]

Or people can use Internet propoganda to fix elections and/or spread bigotry within vulnerable yet connected societies or to spread the exploitation and victimization of vulnerable populations for the fun and profit of their victimizers. Unfortunately, while computers are useful, they are also create vulnerabilities, for societies as well as individuals, and I am not sure that their utility will outweigh their liabilities. It may be that future societies that are more advanced than us will see our use of computers much like we see the personal hygiene of our ancestors during the Reformation (they might wonder how anyone could expose themselves to that much filth without going insane).

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I would suggest that your grandfather-in-law possess TL7 skills and Computer Operation/TL7 at default (meaning that he suffers an additional -5 penalty when attempting a Computer Operation/TL8 task), your father possesses TL8 skills and Computer Operation/TL8 at default, and you possess TL8 skills and Computer Operation/TL8 at IQ+2 (and possible Computer Programming/TL8 at IQ+2, depending on your expertise).

Originally Posted by Gollum

Exactly.

Suppose all of you have IQ 12. A virus appears. Let's say that getting rid of it is an average task to simplify things.

For your grand-father, the effective skill is 3. He could try something but only by luck. And since he is bright, he wont. He will probably call for help.

For your father, it is 8. He has one chance in four to find the solution. He can try something before calling help.

For me, IQ 11, and an amateur level, it is about one chance in two.

And you, with your effective level of 14, you will find the solution (unless being very unlucky: that §×€¥ virus was much more hard that you first thought).

It really makes sense.

To be fair, this is my position. I'm specifically looking for how those advocating that most modern TL8 folks have 1 level of computer operation would build this set of people.

[Culture20]

Originally Posted by ericthered

To be fair, this is my position. I'm specifically looking for how those advocating that most modern TL8 folks have 1 level of computer operation would build this set of people.

At worst, most people who were children during TL8 (and especially early TL8) have a dabbler perk with at least one point reserved for Computer Operation. We actually have been getting a lot of both formal and informal training on computers. I know some rare people that have lived in TL8 their whole lives, but have only casual experience with computers, and they are the ones that I would say have a true default skill level. They know what a computer is and what it’s supposed to do. They know that they don’t talk into the mouse, and that the computer needs to be plugged in to power. Beyond that, they’re mostly guessing at things, and their typing skills are atrocious (hunt and peck). This is not unlike the Driving skill level debate: people who have spent a lot of time in both formal and informal learning on a topic forget what it was like to start out, and when the skill is largely universal, they just assume most everyone’s defaulting.
Computer Operation is an everyman skill in TL8 like firestarting and climbing are everyman skills in TL0-1. You almost have to go out of your way to explain the lack of any points devoted to it.

[AlexanderHowl]

I think that the Dabbler perk should be used to represent a lot of learning, self-study, or practice. At the (Default+1) level, it represents twenty-five hours of learning, fifty hours of self-study, or one hundred hours of practice. At the (Default+2) level, it represents fifty hours of learning, one hundred hours of self-study, or two hundred hours of practice. At the (Default+3) level, it represents one hundred hours of learning, two hundred hours of self-study, or four hundred hours of practice. I generally do not cap the number of Dabbler perks that characters can have because I think that they are Skills rather than Perks.