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Old 07-16-2018, 06:13 AM   #11
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: Costs of spells and talents - requirements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
I agree that I don't want a "memory cap." ...

There are various ways to do this. I split attributes into their component parts (based on the David Dunham article in Different Worlds magazine that I mentioned in another thread). This solved the problem for me. ...

(PS. Rick, if you'd like to see a copy of that article by David Dunham, send me your email and I'll forward you a copy.)

Regards. Chris
Hi Chris,
I'm sure that your system would work, but I think that it is too far from old TFT for Steve to use. I would love to see that article, thank you! Email sent.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 07-16-2018, 06:22 AM   #12
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Ways to gate keep powerful talents.

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
David suggests we would like to avoid high attribute prerequisites for talents if possible.
If anything my position is stronger: I would avoid any attribute prerequisite unless there was a convincing argument it was needed, regarding them as guilty until proven innocent.
  • If the talent requires a roll against something then I'd generally feel that was disincentive enough to purchasing it with a low attribute. So no need for a DX minimum on a talent that makes you do more damage in attacks: if you don't have the DX to hit why should we care if you do more damage.
  • Some talents provide abilities that don't involve rolls. For instance a combat talent that forced enemies to roll an extra die when attacking you. This sort of talent probably does need a prerequisite.
  • Sometimes the roll is against one attribute but we feel another is important so we impose that as a a prerequisite.
Worked example: We might think that becoming a great martial artist requires strength of will to learn meditation and spend hours squatting ten centimetres off the ground practicing breaking rocks by flexing your pectoral muscles. Will is represented by IQ in TFT, so we might say that the thought of a martial artist with low IQ offends us as implausible. If unarmed combat required lots of rolls against IQ to be effective that wouldn't be a problem. But in fact it requires rolls against DX. So we would probably wish to impose an IQ prerequisite, but no DX prerequisite ... until the higher levels, which give defensive bonuses that don't require DX rolls, and therefore get DX prerequisites as well.

Quote:
Time in game spent doing something. (e.g. 2 game years in the army.)
TFT tends to assume there are gaps between adventures where the characters take up regular jobs, but for most modern styles of play that doesn't happen. Instead characters adventure continuously and progress fast. "Must have four years' experience," then becomes an immovable roadblock, permanently prohibiting certain lines of improvement. That sucks. I figure if you've had time to significantly increase an attribute then you've had time to pick up a new skill.

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Talent prerequisites.
Obviously relevant sometimes. I think again the test is, "Would I find a character who can do X but not Y downright silly?"

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Attribute total. (You must have 35+ attributes to buy this. Gamey, but simple.)
So everyone picks up the relevant talent at the same attribute level, and character diversity suffers again. No thanks.

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Attributes with boolean gates: ("Running requires ST above average for your race, or a DX 11+.") (Still uses attributes but gives more character variety.)
I would use the same test as I gave above: does it feel unbelievable.

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Look at Lowest, Middle or Highest attributes: (Charisma requires the Lowest attribute to be 10+.)
Ditto.

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Costs Karma. To gain the Luck (0.5) talent, requires the sacrifice of 3 Karma points.
I don't mind sacrificing the little bastards, just show me where they live. Seriously, the question then becomes how one gets a karma point. Completing heroic quests? It might make sense in some campaigns but not all.

Quote:
Memory cost. This talent fills up your brain bad.
Assuming memory is a soft limit rather than a hard one, I think this should be the winner most of the time, the main tool we pick up to solve this problem. If it's really good, make it expensive to buy, not by fancy indirect methods but by suffixing to its name, between parentheses, a terrifyingly large positive integer. You can make it 12 if you need to: there's nothing stopping you.

Of course we don't know how talent purchase works. Tell me what you think of this:
  • Your first as-many-as-your-IQ points of talents and spells are free. So you start the game with this many, if you want them.
  • The next AMAYIQPOTAS cost some number of experience points per memory point of talents.
  • The next AMAYIQPOTAS cost twice that.
  • The next AMAYIQPOTAS cost three or four times that.
  • The next AMAYIQPOTAS cost four or eight or whatever times that.
We make talents more expensive, perhaps, since this is kind of generous.

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Sacrifice of magical in game resource. "To learn Astral Awareness (0) talent, you must sacrifice a Greater Wish and 500 XP."
See karma.
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Old 07-16-2018, 06:35 AM   #13
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Zot has new costs for talents.

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Hi Zot,
I had a hard time at first following what you were suggesting. If I understand you correctly, we might make a talent like this.

IQ 11 .. Attack of Awesome Damage (0) Requires 1 year training at a suitable academy and 300 XP. You may declare a SMASH attack doing +2 damage with a one handed weapon or +5 damage with a two handed weapon. For the rest of the turn Melee attacks from adjacent figures get +3 DX to hit you.

Is this the sort of thing you were thinking of? The cost of the talent is baked into how it is used.

Warm regards, Rick.
Yes, besides XP and karma prices, time spent in game (military services), talent tradeoffs could negatively affect other activities. As with the other prices, these tradeoffs will make the talents unattractive to some people.
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Old 07-16-2018, 06:48 AM   #14
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Costs of spells and talents - requirements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Attribute total. (You must have 35+ attributes to buy this. Gamey, but simple.)
So everyone picks up the relevant talent at the same attribute level, and character diversity suffers again. No thanks.
That's not the point. A talent can have an attribute total prereq in addition to other prereqs in order to reserve that talent for more experienced characters. This works really well when a talent shouldn't depend on a particular attribute. Like Theurgy, for example, which is where I came up with the idea. A lot of talents that affect reaction rolls are in this group (Charisma, Bard, Courtly Graces, ...).

Also, you could just as well say that diversity suffers when talents have an IQ level because "everyone picks up the relevant talent at the same IQ level."
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Old 07-16-2018, 06:49 AM   #15
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Ways to gate keep powerful talents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
Of course we don't know how talent purchase works. Tell me what you think of this:
  • Your first as-many-as-your-IQ points of talents and spells are free. So you start the game with this many, if you want them.
  • The next AMAYIQPOTAS cost some number of experience points per memory point of talents.
  • The next AMAYIQPOTAS cost twice that.
  • The next AMAYIQPOTAS cost three or four times that.
  • The next AMAYIQPOTAS cost four or eight or whatever times that.
This is really worth considering!
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Old 07-16-2018, 07:03 AM   #16
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: Ways to gate keep powerful talents.

// David was suggesting you can get many talents but the cost of talents rises steeply as you get more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post
This is really worth considering!
Hi David, Zot.
This would work, a couple thoughts...

-- I think that David's exact suggestion above would give out too much mIQ. I would have the higher costs kick in quicker. Maybe you get 10 mIQ for free at character creation, the next 5 pay normal cost, and every 5 more points the cost doubles. I appreciate his system allows high IQ people learn more talents more quickly & cheaply, but is the complexity worth it?

-- This reminds me the Deadlands RPG. The cost goes up steeply for the higher levels of improvement. (It is not hard to get a basic competence in something, but getting really good is expensive.)

Warm regards, Rick.

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 07-16-2018 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 07-16-2018, 08:47 AM   #17
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: Costs of spells and talents - requirements.

Hi all,
I was intending that this thread would be a place for out of the box ideas for the problems discussed in the first few posts. Ideally it would not be a place where the same ideas from other threads are rehashed.

One thing is that Wizards get a place to spend XP, (their staffs), but heroes don't get anything similar.

***

One way to look at the wizard's staff mana bank is it is an advantage in GURPS terms. It is like gradually buying the Extra Fatigue Points advantage. I do not see why a handful of similar advantages could be created. Each character can pick one at character creation.

All of these have the same cost to improve. So if it is decided that putting more points of mana into your staff costs progressively more experience, the following advantages would also pay at the same rate.


Wizards would commonly pick the Staff Advantage. But others are possible:

Weapon Speed. The character spends XP and gradually increases their speed with a single type of weapon. This improves their DX for orders of attack but does not improve their chances to hit. (So if you have a +5 speed and a 12 DX, you would attack with the 17 DX figures, but you would still need a 12 or less to hit. This is not an improvement to a particular weapon, but rather a mystic understanding of how to wield a weapon fast. If you lose your favourite sword, you can replace it with another sword and still keep this bonus. The maximum weapon speed bonus is equal to your DX.

Spell Speed. As above, but it allows wizards to cast spells faster.

Jack of all Trades. You learn many skills and languages quickly and easily. Each point of this advantage bought allows you to gain one extra mIQ for learning talents or languages with. The maximum number of points that may be bought of this advantage is equal to your IQ.

Mystic Strength. You have a mystic understanding of great ST. Each point put into this advantage allows you to increase your ST by one, but only for the following purposes. The Advantages of Great ST rules on page 8 of ItL, Lifting, pushing or dragging heavy objects, saving throw against ST which are caused by magic spells and effects, and, finally, spells that are affected by your ST. So if you had a ST 14 and 7 points of Mystic Strength, you ST if effectively 21 vs magic and a Sleep spell would not effect you. This bonus ST can NOT be used to help you wield heavier weapons nor may it be used to meet the ST prerequisite to talents. The maximum number of points that may be bought on Mystic ST is equal to your basic ST.

Etcetera. A few more of these could easily be invented.

Most wizards would choose to take the Staff Advantage, but some wizards might think Spell Speed would be important (they like casting their spells early in the fight). A few of these advantages would add more variety to characters.

Warm regards, Rick.

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 07-16-2018 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:03 AM   #18
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Costs of spells and talents - requirements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Wizards would commonly pick the Staff Advantage. But others are possible:
...
Weapon Speed.
...
Spell Speed.
...
Jack of all Trades.
...
Mystic Strength.
These are very cool!

I don't see why they need to be called "advantages" though -- they could be called "options", turned "option talents". The text of an option talent could contain the limitations, like a character can have no more than 2 option talents. Or only one option talent if it's supposed to be a "signature feature".
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Old 07-18-2018, 04:06 AM   #19
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Costs of spells and talents - requirements.

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
One thing is that Wizards get a place to spend XP, (their staffs), but heroes don't get anything similar.
A friend just suggested a permanent mechanical golem for Mngineers (theurges in the Mngineering religion) and this is a perfect application for your idea! Added a note that I'm going to develop. For Mngineers, I'm thinking of having a list of permanent devices they can buy and upgrade. Village Wise Ones might get a totem animal (see thread on Pets Familiars) and other tribal / shaman-y things...
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:34 AM   #20
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Costs of spells and talents - requirements.

One side-quibble:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
To cast a spell you have to pay it's cost. This cost is measured in fatigue ST (fST) for all spells (except the Death spell which you pay in ST damage).
I think that reading of the Death spell is your interpretation or house rule. The spell is vague as its wording wasn't revised from Wizard to Advanced Wizard. One wizard dies, but it just says the other loses the same amount of ST. I assumed this meant fatigue loss rather than damage, but it would be an interesting distinction and perhaps-wanted discouragement to use the spell (I think I like the idea, but am just pointing out it doesn't seem to actually say it does damage to the survivor).
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