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Old 07-14-2018, 03:55 PM   #11
tomc
 
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Location: Carrboro, NC
Default Re: Brawling

I'd do "friendly" fights/wrestling as a contest of ST+DX, rather than using the combat rules, which are for trying to kill the other guy before he kills you.

I like the Brawling talent as posted, and I expect nearly everyone to fight dirty all the time.
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:05 PM   #12
JLV
 
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Default Re: Brawling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
We were tribal apes for a long time before some of us became warriors who specialized in fighting strangers.
Well, speaking as one of those warriors trained to fight strangers, all I can say is that several cliches apply here:

1) "He's dead and I'm alive, and that's the way I wanted it to be."

2) "Never give a sucker an even break."

3) "If you're trying to have a "fair" fight, you're trying to lose the fight!" (one of my UC instructors in the Army)

And really, aren't we creating "trained warriors" when we create a warrior character? So, at the end of the day, unless the characters are just horsing around, dirty fighting is going to be the standard form of fighting, I suspect.

One of my bosses in the Air Force, who was a former Marine who'd served with Force Recon in Vietnam, had a K-Bar knife on a stand on his desk. The tip was bent. One of our NCOs asked him one day if he'd dropped the knife or something, and the Colonel replied; "No, I bent the tip of that knife on the breastbone of an NVA sentry who was about to give the alarm as my team infiltrated into the target. I kept it as a reminder of just how bad things can get sometimes." I don't think the sentry managed to give the alarm...

Last edited by JLV; 07-14-2018 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:38 PM   #13
Jim Kane
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Default Re: Brawling

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Originally Posted by JLV View Post
...And really, aren't we creating "trained warriors" when we create a warrior character? So, at the end of the day, unless the characters are just horsing around, dirty fighting is going to be the standard form of fighting, I suspect...
Quite correct.

Thinking now about the Zamorian tavern brawl Conan finds himself in, after being insulted by a fat Kothian slave-trader; wherein death is the result of "brawling with a warrior".

On the other hand - imagine the test of staying in character a player would need to exhibit if they were playing a chivalrous-type (with a code which prevented them from engaging in such ungentlemanly trickery), and battling a group of murderous tavern scum... would be an interesting test of the players resolve *not* to succumb to breakinging character - and meeting them with dirty fighting.

Sometime (as in the case above) having a code can be a distinct liability.

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 07-14-2018 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Addendum
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:47 PM   #14
RobW
 
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Default Re: Brawling

DIrty fighting is the default, if a character wants to fight "honorably", he loses a little damage
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:49 PM   #15
Jim Kane
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Default Re: Brawling

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Originally Posted by RobW View Post
DIrty fighting is the default, if a character wants to fight "honorably", he loses a little damage
I would say RobW's assessment is most accurate ( as what an honorable fighter cannot overcome with superior skill, tactics, and strategy, they lose in damage and initiative against those lacking honor).

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Old 07-14-2018, 05:07 PM   #16
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
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Default Re: Brawling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
A Brawling skill was suggested. Hmmm. It should IMHO be BETTER than UC I, because a bar fighter is probably more dangerous than a larval stage martial artist. But I don't know anything about bar fighting except what I see on TV,, and I don't believe that :) So:

Brawling (1) (IQ 7) Experience with unscientific bar fighting.
• Improvised Weapons. You may “ready” a bottle into an (unthrowable) dagger, throw a mug as though it was a rock (1d-4 damage), or find a club in any piece of broken furniture.
• Punch. You do one extra hit of damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat.
• Dirty Fighting. You may choose to do two extra hits of damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat, but then the brawl is not “friendly.” Foes will fight back dirty, or grab weapons.
Improvised weapons. I always kinda assumed anyone could do that anyway. But maybe to make use of something larger, like a chair or table for more damage might be interesting.

Punch. +1 damage isn't very interesting as a Talent point.
Dirty Fighting. This is a bit more interesting and attractive.
Maybe combine these two into "Rough and Tumble", +1 unarmed/+2 HTH.

I think someone made a point on another thread that a "Brawler" should have a greater chance to initiate HTH and I agree.

The combination of these 3 aspects could make a worthwhile Talent

Last edited by Chris Rice; 07-14-2018 at 06:08 PM. Reason: To compensate for "phone fingers"
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Old 07-14-2018, 07:10 PM   #17
Steve Jackson
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Default Re: Brawling

I expect the people defending my country to fight just as dirty as they have to, BEFORE the other guy gets there, so no problem on this side. But I don't imagine they were teaching you Brawling - I think it was real UC.

I think the mismatch of expectations is that I am thinking of Brawling as NOT really a serious combat skill - just a dominance game, in a world which is itself a game. If you really want to hurt somebody, bring a weapon. (Heinlein, paraphrased: "Force is the last refuge of the incompetent. The competent will use force sooner.")

Furniture fighting: Is any of that real? For instance, while you oomph a chair over your head, aren't you begging to get kicked anywhere from the waist down?
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Old 07-14-2018, 07:13 PM   #18
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Brawling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
I expect the people defending my country to fight just as dirty as they have to, BEFORE the other guy gets there, so no problem on this side. But I don't imagine they were teaching you Brawling - I think it was real UC.

I think the mismatch of expectations is that I am thinking of Brawling as NOT really a serious combat skill - just a dominance game, in a world which is itself a game. If you really want to hurt somebody, bring a weapon. (Heinlein, paraphrased: "Force is the last refuge of the incompetent. The competent will use force sooner.")

Furniture fighting: Is any of that real? For instance, while you oomph a chair over your head, aren't you begging to get kicked anywhere from the waist down?
You've obviously never hit someone with a chair Steve. If you had, you'd know you do it from behind! It's highly effective by the way.
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Old 07-14-2018, 08:11 PM   #19
Terquem
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Idaho Falls
Default Re: Brawling

I agree with what Mr. Jackson said about brawling earlier, specifically about women learning self defense - when our daughter was in college she took a self defense class and she laughed when the instructor was surprised to see her lash out so violently in the first few classes

Then she told him she had three brothers...

Edit - also wanted to add my two cents - the idea of comparing "brawling" say the kind of person that falls into the skill after years of a hard life on the streets should never be compared to any sort of trained martial arts, even the kind of "cage" fighting we see on television. In my opinion, brawlers learn faster how to size up their opponents and know when they are outmatched, when to fight dirty, and when to run away.

Of course then there are always the "theatrical" brawlers and the "intoxicated" brawlers - all different sorts of folks in my opinion.

Last edited by Terquem; 07-14-2018 at 08:16 PM. Reason: my no type well
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Old 07-14-2018, 08:57 PM   #20
Steve Jackson
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Default Re: Brawling

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Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
You've obviously never hit someone with a chair Steve. If you had, you'd know you do it from behind!
Oh, THAT'S what I've been doing wrong!
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