02-15-2017, 03:26 AM | #41 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour
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Knight of the Cross Michael Carpenter, in the Dresden Files, wears mail and plate made from modern steel alloys to protect him from the claws and teeth of the monsters he fights. Instead of low-tech fabric padding, however, his has para-aramid padding and can therefore provide reliable protection against pistol and submachine rounds and might even help against lower powered rifle rounds. Any PC who fights monsters in melee will eventually inquire about such armour, perhaps using titanium alloy plate and improved ballistic polymer if using the stats from Cutting Edge Armor. It would feel really weird to tell them that using improved ballistic polymer for the padding instead of lower tech solutions suddenly imposes a -1 DX penalty. Especially as they could be using an underlayer of ballistic padding that may be thin enough to remain flexible even on the Chest and thin enough on the limbs to be concealed as light clothing or even lingerie, but still get DR good enough to stop fragments or low-powered pistol rounds on its own. In my experience, any PCs in a campaign with the kind of secretive, powerful and well-funded conspiracies that populate typical supers worlds and any kind of world with secret powers or creatures will also want to explore the possibilities of a ninja suit made out of the best flexible ballistic materials possible to wear on its own or to conceal under normal clothing. In either case, having the option of putting on a rifle-proofed tactical vest designed to go over it seems logical and it would seem churlish and illogical to claim that the mere act of designing the ensemble so that the underlayer can be worn seperately would necessarily impose a -1 DX penalty, if a tactical vest of that same total thickness (which is itself many layers of material) would not. Well-tailored, classy, but bulletproof men's suits are another mainstay of supers, conspiracy games or secret powers (inc. urban fantasy). Just because the final ensemble adds together the DR from the undershirt and the jacket, for example, shouldn't necessarily mean that the custom-tailored suit which weighs 10-12 lbs. is less comfortable or more restrictive than tactical gear weighing 15+ lbs.
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Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! Last edited by Icelander; 02-15-2017 at 03:38 AM. |
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02-15-2017, 03:35 AM | #42 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour
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There are material difference a single thick sweater is likely of different weave and different material than the T -shirts. The T-shirts will be of a different cut from the sweater (the sweater being designed to be worn over something like a T-shirt). But all those factors can work in both directions increasing issues if they are ignored as much as reducing them if they are catered for. Then of course there's the issue that armour has a job to do as well as being comfortable to wear, which comes with it own set of requirements that have their one knock on effects here that are relevant to with t-shirts or sweatshirts Quote:
Basically there's always a trade off, and while we can hold off when the trade off kicks in in terms of directly inhibiting the wearer in various ways (different materials, better fitting, better interaction and tailoring between layers etc) at some point it going to come in And of course there's the omnipresent issue of just the weight, which again while it can be acclimatised to does have a feedback here. Looking at that MTV that sir_pudding talked about earlier, would that be "Munitions grade" in GURPS terms, I don't know, maybe? Certainly not by intention I'm sure, but as a byproduct of the real world trade offs of having to mass produce 10,000's of units of 30lb torso armour for a range of people on a budget? Yeah maybe |
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02-15-2017, 03:48 AM | #43 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour
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Ultimately without creating whole joined up solution that cover all situation to this (as said I kind of have mine already), I'd cater for the kind of bespoke situation you outline above with monster hunters etc, is by saying the well funded and/or technically capable ones are capable of resourcing their way round this issue. Since they tend not to restrained by the economic realities of producing armour for groups that issue it with their own constraints on it But the further they push it the harder it become for them to do so. Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-15-2017 at 04:33 AM. |
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02-15-2017, 04:20 AM | #44 | ||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour
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I would be fine that saying that wearing just the outer layer imposes a -1 DX penalty in such cases, as it is missing assumed padding, and that only an underlayer that approximates the fit and padding of the original removes this penalty. I don't think this is Fine tailoring or any similarly expensive option. I just think it amounts to standard Good-quality gear, as opposed to mass-produced models which may come out cheaper than the design system yields for custom models, with a design switch of making the outer layer fit the wearer while he's wearing an underlayer of a certain thickness and modular fastenings for the outer layer, which I'd think are realistically worth no more than an extra $50-$100, to an absolute maximum of $500 or so for fastenings that are both works of art and extremely user-friendly, reliable and secure. Then again, I wouldn't allow this unless the combined thickness of both layers was below published examples of armour which do not give a DX penalty and I probably wouldn't allow it unless the underlayer was thin enough to be concealed as ordinary clothing. Custom-designed modular armour which exceeds these DR guidelines without giving a DX penalty might still be possible, but would be Fine-quality and extremely expensive. An example would be a bodysuit of 1/8" thick improved ballistic polymer over the limbs, 1/6" thick over the Abdomen and 1/4" thick over the Chest, which can also be used as the underlayer to a tactical vest of another 1/4" thickness of improved ballistic polymer combined with a fitted cuirass of 1/5" thick titanium composite plate over the Chest. Total thickness is less than that of OTV + SAPI or IOTV + E-SAPI.
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Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! Last edited by Icelander; 02-15-2017 at 04:41 AM. |
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02-15-2017, 05:10 AM | #45 | |||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour
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Ultimately I think its going to be hard to spilt the issues of layering and the issue of the armour as whole. The problem being any issues will potentially any one of or combination of: 1). a factor of the layer in and off itself 2). a factor of how the layers interact (which is also an issue of what counts as layer) 3). a factor of the overall set of armour For example I'm not sure using the proportion of actual DR to Maximum DR as a proxy for restrictiveness would work, because restrictiveness is not much of linear relationship across all materials. Quote:
More specifically I would say there would be an increase in the design cost (your adding an extra stipulation to the item's capabilities) which if it's bespoke is part of the per item cost. But for mass produced goods once the deign was done I can't imagine it would add much to the manufacture cost. Since it really just where that infrastructure is placed. Of course if what your doing by wanting this is creating some completely new way of joining two layers of armour then it might be more. Which I guess is just me saying it's a very specific question in terms of individual items. Sorry not much of an answer! Quote:
As for good quality versions of standard mass produced stuff (you thinking in terms of things like the MTV here?) pricing is hard to say because economy of scale messes a lot of this up. Real world prices and theoretical prices based on material cost, are never going to relate well. So yeah personally I'd start with the quality multipliers here and see if the end result pass a "sniff test". Sorry really not much of an answer here! Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-15-2017 at 05:22 AM. |
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02-15-2017, 05:41 AM | #46 |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour
Something else on the joining layers question.
Its going to depend on what these layers are. Some outer layers might not be complete layers in their own right but additions to the underlying thing. For example trauma plates that are designed to slip into pockets that are integrated into the "underlayer". Although I guess it's fair to say these such "underlayer" aren't really going to fit your definition of concealable. Of course "concealable" itself is a broad term it could just mean something that can have something worn over the top! Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-15-2017 at 07:35 AM. |
02-15-2017, 06:58 AM | #47 | ||||||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour
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There is probably a thickness at which armour is going to give DX penalties regardless of whether it is one or more layers. Quote:
I would think that if the Maximum DR value is a short-hand for 'how much of this material can a human wear without being so hindered as to make it useless as tactical armour', some percentage of it would be useful as a guide to such questions as 'how much of it can one wear without suffering any penalty', 'how much of it can one wear over joints without suffering a penalty to use that limb' and 'how much can you wear on your legs without a mobility penalty'. Quote:
On the other hand, high-quality commercial versions of survival gear, clothing and load-bearing equipment demonstrate that the Cost, in GURPS terms, of privately purchased gear with adjustable straps and fastenings fitting that description is not all that much in the context of assault gear that already costs $2,000+ for materials and tailoring. Quote:
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I really don't think that it should cost more to make well-tailored armour made from superior materials look fashionable and cool than it does to make armour badly made from cheap materials do it. Also, as soon as you have the technology to make a bulletproof suit that looks and behaves as a normal suit, it doesn't really cost you much extra to make that suit an exact replica of an elegant gentleman's suit in his size. Odds are, especially at TL9+, that you are using some kind of computer-assisted fabrication process that measures your intended user and custom-tailors the suit to him anyway. In cases like that, a suit that both protects and looks stylishly appropriate at a Status 2+ gathering would seem to have more in common with Combination Gadgets. Yes, it's more expensive to have one that is both, but maybe it's not $20,000 to have a Stylish suit made from improved ballistic polymer if it is $5,000 to have a normal suit made from it and a normal Stylish suit runs about a $1,000. It gets worse for the Fashion Original level, which is around a $5,000 in a gentleman's suit, but which would cost $100,000 if made out of improved ballistic polymer. I just don't see how using the advanced ballistic material, instead of, say, Nomex, makes the design work of the fashion designer so much more expensive. Yes, it's specialised work designing nice-looking suits made from thick and strong materials instead of comfortable fabrics of clothing thickness, but it's not necessarily more specialised or more difficult when using space-age composites than when using rubber and steel.
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02-15-2017, 11:38 AM | #49 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour
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That's backwards.
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02-15-2017, 11:41 AM | #50 | |
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour
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Is there some reason to think that DR shouldn't be linear? |
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cutting-edge armor design, pyramid #3/85 |
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