[Thaumatology] Spell Slots and Grimoires

Bazial · 12-21-2017, 04:31 AM

I've been reading through Thaumatology lately, and I was looking at the sections on Spell Slots (p. 56) and Grimoires (p. 38). I really dig the idea, but I've been having some problems figuring out exactly how it translates to practice.

The logic of spells slots are clear; a wizard can only use the points on spells in his grimoire, he doesn't have to fulfill all prerequisites as long as the preq spells are in his grimoire, etc.

However, some of the wording on page 38 confuses me. Part of it is because of the intent of customization and choosing which you like best, but it seems a bit confusing when considering the interaction with spell slots.

It states that suggested cost is 2% of starting wealth per spell (and this requires the wizard to have the prerequisites in the same grimoire), but lists as an alternative that spells can cost 2% of starting wealth plus 1% for each prerequisite (not requiring wizards to have the prerequisites in the same grimoire).

In the spell slots section, it says a wizard can only prepare spells for which he has the prerequisites in his grimoire.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, this essentially creates two choices.

1) Each spell is 2% of starting wealth, requires prerequisites in same grimoire.

2) Each spell is 2% + 1% of starting, and do not requires prerequisites in same grimoire; but to prepare them, prerequisites ARE required in same grimoire.

Option 2 seems to generate much, much more expensive spells, and leaves a wizard unable to put points in a very monetarily expensive spell he has added to his grimoire because he does not have the prerequisites. High prerequisite spells suddenly seem to become pretty big investments money-wise.

Am I understanding this correctly?

Gnaskar · 12-21-2017, 06:20 AM

I think the intent from Grimoires is that the first type of grimoire is a traditional Spell Book (the collected lore and spell research from a single caster), while the second is more of an advanced how to guide. Put another way, the first is for character creation and the second for advancement through play. Note also that while the second option is more expensive if you are buying the whole prerequisite tree that way, it's actually much cheaper if you already have all the prerequisites in other Grimoires, and you just need one more spell. Using the first option would require paying for all the prerequisite spells you already know again at 2% each instead of 1%.

Especially combined with the options from Gaining New Spells, the first option is built around the idea of each mage having their own single personal Grimoire, while the second is based more on the Standardized Grimoire format. In which case, the more prerequisite heavy spells are more expensive, because the books which describe them can only be written by master mages and so are much rarer than Pyromancy 101.

If I were to use these rules in a game however, I'd probably combine the two options: 2% per spell in the Grimoire + 1% per prerequisite spell missing from the Grimoire. That gives the best of both worlds, at the cost of a little extra work for the GM.

Bazial · 12-21-2017, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnaskar

I think the intent from Grimoires is that the first type of grimoire is a traditional Spell Book (the collected lore and spell research from a single caster), while the second is more of an advanced how to guide. Put another way, the first is for character creation and the second for advancement through play. Note also that while the second option is more expensive if you are buying the whole prerequisite tree that way, it's actually much cheaper if you already have all the prerequisites in other Grimoires, and you just need one more spell. Using the first option would require paying for all the prerequisite spells you already know again at 2% each instead of 1%.

Especially combined with the options from Gaining New Spells, the first option is built around the idea of each mage having their own single personal Grimoire, while the second is based more on the Standardized Grimoire format. In which case, the more prerequisite heavy spells are more expensive, because the books which describe them can only be written by master mages and so are much rarer than Pyromancy 101.

If I were to use these rules in a game however, I'd probably combine the two options: 2% per spell in the Grimoire + 1% per prerequisite spell missing from the Grimoire. That gives the best of both worlds, at the cost of a little extra work for the GM.

Ah, thanks, that's a nice middle-way. I took it that the intent was to simulate those two kinds of spellbook traditions as well, and I can appreciate that design flexibility.

The question remains then, both by RAW and by how one would/should actually run it, whether a mage can put points into a spell that he has in his grimoire, but is lacking all prerequisites for. Under Modular Abilities in the Spell Slots sidebar on page 56, it explicitly says that a mage needs to have all prereq spells in his grimoire, but your post seems to suggest that need not be a case. Any thoughts on this?

Gnaskar · 12-22-2017, 10:12 AM

In a setting with private spell books, I'd rule that they'd need to have the spell and all it's prerequisites transcribed in their personal grimoire to cast it from a modular slot. In which case, personal grimoires (both the one the players start with, and any they loot) would cost 2% per spell in it. The other type would be extremely rare; the sort of thing you might be able to study in guild libraries but very rarely available for sale.

In a setting where you can use any grimoire, I'd say you still need to have every prerequisite spell in your grimoire collection. Not necessarily in the same book, but you'd still need to have access to (and be able to reference) the prerequisites in order to prepare a spell.

The rules are pretty clear that you can only prepare a spell if you have access to the prerequisites. The fact that you can buy grimoires without said prerequisites in them doesn't really change that.

Bazial · 12-23-2017, 01:42 AM

That's a good point. On page 162 of Fantasy, there's an alternate suggestion that mages can prepare spells without having all prerequisites, but take a -1 for each lacking prerequisite. That might be a cool middle road.

Anaraxes · 12-23-2017, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazial

The question remains then, both by RAW and by how one would/should actually run it

Most of GURPS, and particuarly Thaumatology, is a game design toolkit. It gives you a lot of options, some of which work together, and some of which don't.

So the answer to the question is (as it usually is) not "how was it intended to work by RAW", but "how do you want it to work in your game". You can use either of those rules, or both together, and those choices will have slightly different feels from each other, as the players gravitate to what they see as the cost-effective solutions, and then the table starts to see that as the way mages "normally" or "all ought to" behave.

Similarly, even choosing to use the rules for grimoires and spell slots is yet another option with yet other side effects on the feel and application of magic in the game. The authors aren't fixing bugs in earlier editions and telling you that it needs to work this way or that to be fun. They're giving you choices. It's a restaurant menu, not a recipe. And like food, there are classic combinations, popular combinations, oddball ones that nevertheless work even if they aren't popular, and the strange ones that aren't really good, yet still somehow become some people's favorite.

The hurdle for a GURPS GM is generally knowing the system well enough to be familiar with lots of options and to have a good feel for how the choices are going to work out and interact to give the game and the setting the feel he wants for any particular game.

Seems like you have a pretty good handle on the mechanical effects of those rules and understand the effects they're going to have. So, you're back to that world design question. How easy is it to cast with and without books, many books would a mage have, how portable are they, how much do you want it to cost, how much of their game time is going to be devoting to hunting down new grimoires, or scoring them as valuable adventure rewards, or plot "pulls"?

12-21-2017, 04:31 AM	#1
Bazial Join Date: Feb 2016	[Thaumatology] Spell Slots and Grimoires I've been reading through Thaumatology lately, and I was looking at the sections on Spell Slots (p. 56) and Grimoires (p. 38). I really dig the idea, but I've been having some problems figuring out exactly how it translates to practice. The logic of spells slots are clear; a wizard can only use the points on spells in his grimoire, he doesn't have to fulfill all prerequisites as long as the preq spells are in his grimoire, etc. However, some of the wording on page 38 confuses me. Part of it is because of the intent of customization and choosing which you like best, but it seems a bit confusing when considering the interaction with spell slots. It states that suggested cost is 2% of starting wealth per spell (and this requires the wizard to have the prerequisites in the same grimoire), but lists as an alternative that spells can cost 2% of starting wealth plus 1% for each prerequisite (not requiring wizards to have the prerequisites in the same grimoire). In the spell slots section, it says a wizard can only prepare spells for which he has the prerequisites in his grimoire. So if I'm understanding this correctly, this essentially creates two choices. 1) Each spell is 2% of starting wealth, requires prerequisites in same grimoire. 2) Each spell is 2% + 1% of starting, and do not requires prerequisites in same grimoire; but to prepare them, prerequisites ARE required in same grimoire. Option 2 seems to generate much, much more expensive spells, and leaves a wizard unable to put points in a very monetarily expensive spell he has added to his grimoire because he does not have the prerequisites. High prerequisite spells suddenly seem to become pretty big investments money-wise. Am I understanding this correctly?

12-21-2017, 06:20 AM	#2
Gnaskar Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: [Thaumatology] Spell Slots and Grimoires I think the intent from Grimoires is that the first type of grimoire is a traditional Spell Book (the collected lore and spell research from a single caster), while the second is more of an advanced how to guide. Put another way, the first is for character creation and the second for advancement through play. Note also that while the second option is more expensive if you are buying the whole prerequisite tree that way, it's actually much cheaper if you already have all the prerequisites in other Grimoires, and you just need one more spell. Using the first option would require paying for all the prerequisite spells you already know again at 2% each instead of 1%. Especially combined with the options from Gaining New Spells, the first option is built around the idea of each mage having their own single personal Grimoire, while the second is based more on the Standardized Grimoire format. In which case, the more prerequisite heavy spells are more expensive, because the books which describe them can only be written by master mages and so are much rarer than Pyromancy 101. If I were to use these rules in a game however, I'd probably combine the two options: 2% per spell in the Grimoire + 1% per prerequisite spell missing from the Grimoire. That gives the best of both worlds, at the cost of a little extra work for the GM.

12-22-2017, 10:12 AM	#4
Gnaskar Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: [Thaumatology] Spell Slots and Grimoires In a setting with private spell books, I'd rule that they'd need to have the spell and all it's prerequisites transcribed in their personal grimoire to cast it from a modular slot. In which case, personal grimoires (both the one the players start with, and any they loot) would cost 2% per spell in it. The other type would be extremely rare; the sort of thing you might be able to study in guild libraries but very rarely available for sale. In a setting where you can use any grimoire, I'd say you still need to have every prerequisite spell in your grimoire collection. Not necessarily in the same book, but you'd still need to have access to (and be able to reference) the prerequisites in order to prepare a spell. The rules are pretty clear that you can only prepare a spell if you have access to the prerequisites. The fact that you can buy grimoires without said prerequisites in them doesn't really change that.

12-23-2017, 01:42 AM	#5
Bazial Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: [Thaumatology] Spell Slots and Grimoires That's a good point. On page 162 of Fantasy, there's an alternate suggestion that mages can prepare spells without having all prerequisites, but take a -1 for each lacking prerequisite. That might be a cool middle road.