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Old 12-03-2018, 12:54 PM   #21
khorboth
 
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Default Re: Strength (ST) in high TL settings - Pricing?

This is really more setting-specific than TL-specific.

If you're playing a sci-fi horror at TL10 based on Alien, then power armor is rare, and ST is quite valuable.

If you're playing a high-concept TL4 fantasy game where gauntlets of ogre power are dime-a-dozen, then it's worth less.

I've routinely made small adjustments to prices when I feel something needs a tweak. Even some game-specific tweaks, but I've never felt the need to mess with ST.

In general, unarmed combat happens. Even in the modern world of drones and cruise missiles, we still train soldiers in unarmed combat. And that's for the most edge-case folk.

Bar brawls will still happen, bolts get stuck, and not everybody will have power armor. And power armor is frequently bulky, expensive, or hard to maintain.

ST is also useful for resisting things. In unarmed combat, for holds, in general for not getting pulled into things, for holding onto stuff and for closing, opening, and pulling things.

Even in my TL10 game, we rolled ST fairly frequently. And they had access to some seriously top-end equipment.
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Old 12-03-2018, 02:03 PM   #22
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Default Re: Strength (ST) in high TL settings - Pricing?

Thanks for all the replies... Actually it is nice to discover, that most people do not see the need to change something. In the end that is easier anyway... ;)
Maybe I overrated the point. So probably I would just try to adjust something when the players in a campaign bring up the topic themselves.
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Old 12-03-2018, 11:53 PM   #23
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Default Re: Strength (ST) in high TL settings - Pricing?

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Originally Posted by OldSam View Post
Hey folks,
certainly most of us know that ST does not scale very well when it comes to higher techlevels. An ancient TL2 warrior obviously gets more out of the points, than the big muscle guy on the TL10 spaceship for instance...
Well... A TL2 mage may not get much use from ST either.

As for the TL10 guy, sure if they're a tech and there's not much combat, they'll not have much use for ST. However, if there's a fair bit of non-lethal combat (brawls, need to restrain unruly passengers, etc.), then a decent level of ST is quite useful. If there's lots of full-on combat with ultra-tech guns, then unless everyone is in powered armour, ST is very useful, because armour that stops UT guns is heavy. If there's much cross-country travel on foot, ST is useful there, too. Also, high ST allows high HP, and that's useful in UT combat as much as it is in low TL combat unless the UT combat is all about support weapons and suchlike.

In my SF campaign ST is almost as popular as DX and IQ (and the single most important ability in my players' opinions is having a good HT check).
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Old 12-04-2018, 05:42 AM   #24
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Default Re: Strength (ST) in high TL settings - Pricing?

Of course, we are getting back to the point where GURPS is really a three attribute system (ST can be completely replaced with HP, Lifting ST, and Striking ST). I do not think that it breaks the system to reduce the cost of ST to 5 CP/level (HP to 1 CP/level, Striking ST to 3 CP/level, and Lifting ST to 1 CP/level).
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Old 12-04-2018, 02:01 PM   #25
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Default Re: Strength (ST) in high TL settings - Pricing?

I'm going to chime in about discounting strength being a problem. Strength may seem under powered in a high tech game until someone uses it. It is the most levered attribute in the game and the strong guy in space is something to be feared. Striking strength isn't all that impressive but being able to carry a lot of gear without slowing down is a pretty big deal and even though weapons do so much damage a few more hit points is more important than you often think it is. More importantly while I'm not going to attack you with a sword in a sci-fi setting, I am going to shove you in an airlock, or pin you to the deck plating and immobilize you, or get a solid hold on your vacc suit as we both tumble away from the ship
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Old 12-04-2018, 02:24 PM   #26
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Default Re: Strength (ST) in high TL settings - Pricing?

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Originally Posted by Black Leviathan View Post
I'm going to chime in about discounting strength being a problem. Strength may seem under powered in a high tech game until someone uses it. It is the most levered attribute in the game and the strong guy in space is something to be feared. Striking strength isn't all that impressive but being able to carry a lot of gear without slowing down is a pretty big deal and even though weapons do so much damage a few more hit points is more important than you often think it is. More importantly while I'm not going to attack you with a sword in a sci-fi setting, I am going to shove you in an airlock, or pin you to the deck plating and immobilize you, or get a solid hold on your vacc suit as we both tumble away from the ship

Have you ever in all of your games looked at a character and said "That character's ST is out of control. He's hogging the spot-light, its difficult for other characters to feel useful when he's around, and he makes it difficult for me to balance the party's foes?"

Because I sure haven't. I've thought that about characters with sky high DX, or IQ, or Magery. I haven't had quite the same thoughts about HT and Speed, but high speed can get obnoxious and high HT plus a (seemingly) reckless PC can make encounter balance hard. But ST? The big guy usually offers to carry stuff for other people. He can only grapple one foe at a time, so the rest of the group needs to set him up to take down that one dude. The ability to have a PC who can take a hit and keep going lets me ratchet up the stakes without taking someone out of play, and wounds in gurps matter, so he isn't an infinite pile of HP. ST doesn't get out of control, even with gear. ST is something that every character could benefit from, even when they're not the dedicated big guy.

high ST doesn't break the game, and it encourages teamwork. At least in settings with automatic fire.
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Old 12-04-2018, 11:44 PM   #27
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Default Re: Strength (ST) in high TL settings - Pricing?

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high ST doesn't break the game, and it encourages teamwork. At least in settings with automatic fire.
High ST allows high DR and high Dodge and Move. It allows carrying baggier, nastier weapons. Such a character is harder to put down than weaker characters, and that makes combat balance harder, because a weapon that can threaten the brick turns the nerds into pink mist. Compare someone with 20ST/HP and Combat Armour to someone with 10ST/HP and a tacsuit.

The former is carrying 37 lbs of armour (assuming a matching helmet), and has 43 lbs to spare before they are out of 'none' for encumbrance. They have DR75/45 (DR60/45 on the head, or DR60 with a no-faceplate model), and can easier afford the weight of extras like reactive paste. Their torso and head is largely proof against small arms, HEMP aside and anti-material weapons aside, and their limbs are protected from lighter small arms. Their greatly lower HP means that even fairly light weapons will cripple limbs and extremities, and hits that will merely put the brick out of combat will kill them.

The latter is carrying 18.1 lbs (including helmet), leaving less than 2 lbs. before hitting 'light' encumbrance, so with a combat load they will have reduced Move and Dodge, and will most likely be in 'medium' if they have to carry any extra kit beyond weapons, armour, and a few basic tools. Their armour will not stop most military small arms of the day. They might be better off with a light clamshell or tactical vest plus plates, so that at least their torso is well-armoured, at the expense of their limbs. At least then they'll be more likely to survive a hit, if not be able to keep functioning after it. However, just about any weapon powerful enough to penetrate their armour will, on a decent roll, wreck them.

Now, ST20 is probably not worth more than DX15, assuming that the rest of the character is built to take advantage of the higher attribute. However, in my experience players will take ST12, DX14 over ST10, DX15 for a combat character at TL9-11. At high point budgets ST rises faster than other attributes, which does suggest it's held to be a little less vital on a tight budget, but all suggests that my players find it very attractive once the 'essentials' are paid for.
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Old 12-05-2018, 04:31 AM   #28
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Default Re: Strength (ST) in high TL settings - Pricing?

There is a case to be made that DX and IQ are a bit too broad, but they are simple and a good GM can prevent any one character from using them to hog the spotlight.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Also, if you're on the TL4 battlefield wearing good armor, the guy with the pollaxe is a LOT scarier than the guy with the spear. Not only because his weapon is better against plate, but because armed grappling is very much a thing at that Tech Level, and because he does more damage.
As a guy who fights in armour ... no, not really. The pollaxe can give blows as well as thrusts, but the spear can still kill you dead from a distance and the point is nimbler. Both weapons can be used for armed grappling, or you can just switch to your sword or dagger ... no biggie. Moreover, this is in general ... at low tech a fighter with a Good Spear and a Good Long Knife is about as dangerous against most opponents as one who uses Strength and Wealth to carry an assortment of the heaviest, most expensive weapons available.

Yeah, sometimes a really long Reach will be key, or a specialized armour piercing weapon, or in a fantasy setting the bronze mace will affect opponents which the iron sword does not, but a spear a bit longer than the wielder is a good all-around weapon and the fanciest low-tech weapons still kill one poke or swing at a time.
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Last edited by Polydamas; 12-05-2018 at 04:34 AM.
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Old 12-05-2018, 05:52 AM   #29
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Default Re: Strength (ST) in high TL settings - Pricing?

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Originally Posted by Black Leviathan View Post
...a few more hit points is more important than you often think it is.
Yes. One important way in which this is true: Buying ST up from 10 to, say, 15 may get a PC "only" 5 more HP. But that's 5 HP until unconsciousness rolls. It's another 5 HP until the first death roll, meaning the PC really got 10 extra HP to soak up damage before a death roll.

A better example: Let's say that PCs, with their good HT stats, survive until -HPx3 on average. With ST 15 instead of 10, then, death happens when HP drop from 15 to -45, not 10 to -30. That's an ability to soak 20 more HP before dropping dead!

Of course, all that holds true if the PC just buys extra HP for a low cost, not full extra ST. Still, whichever purchase the PC makes, it's a point worth appreciating.
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Old 12-05-2018, 07:04 AM   #30
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Default Re: Strength (ST) in high TL settings - Pricing?

In TL 7+ games, I would suggest that there are more valuable traits than ST > 12. Let us take the example of ST 16. It costs a character 40 CP to go from ST 12 to ST 16. That character could gain more overall utility by purchasing Independent Income 5, Status 2, and Wealth (Very Wealthy). Or Combat Reflexes, High Pain Threshold, and Luck. Or any of +2 DX, +2 IQ, +4 HT, or +2.00 Basic Speed. And these are just mundane characters. Let's face it, in TL 7+ games, ST is close to being a dump state because there is little reason to go above ST 12.
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