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Old 12-12-2019, 01:27 AM   #1
JimmyPlenty
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Unarmed Combat / Weapon Expertise & Fencing

Hey all,

Wanted to understand something about unarmed combat and its damage reduction. I understand this is from something akin to "rolling with the punch" and other defense explanations. Makes sense.

However, none of the weapon expertise / fencing skills has this. Anyone know a reason? These defenses may not roll with the blow, but I could see a skilled combatant keep blows away from vital organs and such.

Also, having this available would makes another way for talented individuals to have an advantage over non-skilled ones. (in addition to the negative to hit) It is just enough to take the edge off without being too superior. Or am I wrong?
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Old 12-12-2019, 07:23 AM   #2
hcobb
 
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Unarmed Combat / Weapon Expertise & Fencing

I've always played the Master Fencer double parry as including the two-weapons double parry, but Dagger Mastery remains the most powerful combat talent.

Dagger Mastery defend is 6/(DX-2) so the attacker needs adjDX 17+ in order to have better than a default chance to hit. While at the same time the wizard is doing an occult zap with a 95.37% chance to hit (whatever the defender's talents or mundane gear) for 5.5 points of damage than ignores the defender's mundane armor or talents. Fortunately the wizard can only afford to do forty or so such zaps and so only kills two 14-hex dragons without getting scratched.
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Old 12-12-2019, 12:09 PM   #3
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Unarmed Combat / Weapon Expertise & Fencing

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
I've always played the Master Fencer double parry as including the two-weapons double parry, but Dagger Mastery remains the most powerful combat talent.

Dagger Mastery defend is 6/(DX-2) so the attacker needs adjDX 17+ in order to have better than a default chance to hit. While at the same time the wizard is doing an occult zap with a 95.37% chance to hit (whatever the defender's talents or mundane gear) for 5.5 points of damage than ignores the defender's mundane armor or talents. Fortunately the wizard can only afford to do forty or so such zaps and so only kills two 14-hex dragons without getting scratched.
While I agree that it is terribly strong in the ways that it is strong, and I would tend to house-rule at least some nerfs or additional disadvantages to some of that, I also think it seems rather extreme and silly.

That wizard is probably low-ST and the defense doesn't work against dragon fire (or shortbow arrows), does it?

Seems to me that if you are talking about IQ 20 wizards like that, they have much better things to do with their IQ than learn Dagger Mastery and engage enemies in the front line. And they also have better things to do with their ST than staff zaps.

Not that there aren't maybe lower-IQ versions, but still it seems like an unwise use of wizard talent just to demonstrate how some rules are weird and cheesy.
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Old 12-12-2019, 12:15 PM   #4
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Unarmed Combat / Weapon Expertise & Fencing

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyPlenty View Post
Hey all,

Wanted to understand something about unarmed combat and its damage reduction. I understand this is from something akin to "rolling with the punch" and other defense explanations. Makes sense.

However, none of the weapon expertise / fencing skills has this. Anyone know a reason? These defenses may not roll with the blow, but I could see a skilled combatant keep blows away from vital organs and such.

Also, having this available would makes another way for talented individuals to have an advantage over non-skilled ones. (in addition to the negative to hit) It is just enough to take the edge off without being too superior. Or am I wrong?
I don't know the reason - we'd have to ask SJ.

I expect there may be no reason, and might be tempted to break out "rolling with the blow" as its own advanced talent available to masters of weapons as well as unarmed masters.

In general though for house rules to represent talented individuals having defense advantages, I tend to prefer things that reduce hit chances rather than adding armor. Actually that might be the reason I'd expect SJ might have given this to unarmed combat: because it requires not wearing any actual armor, while weapon masters don't have that restriction.

And, one of the system breaking points is when stacking armor, and this would add another way to stack with armor unless restricted to talents than deny heavy armor.
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Old 12-19-2019, 06:49 AM   #5
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Unarmed Combat / Weapon Expertise & Fencing

Skarg is on point here.

And if you don't like -DX for the enemies, which is a bit of an anomaly rules wise, there is nothing stopping you balance wise from adding armor points instead. But if you allow a lot of armor and magic, stacking might be a problem.

When it comes to thematic realism, most fencing or weapon martial arts doesn't train you to take a hit, they train you to avoid getting hit. Unarmed martial arts on the other hand, both train you to take a hit, and to strengthen your body against damage. Look to Thai-boxers or kung-fu practitioners. They develop cartilage covering their ribs, knuckles, fore arms and chins. They strengthen fingers and stomach muscles as well as getting hit on a regular basis in sparring, even if it is not with full force. Breaking bricks with your head might not be a good idea in reality, but in a fantasy setting, go for it! :-D
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