New Adventures for TFT.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Kirk

... So my vote is to fix up typesetting and paste up errors ... and then.. DEVELOP AND RELEASE SOME EXCELLENT PROGRAMMED ADVENTURES that allow beginners and experienced alike the ability to quickly get a group together and try to make it through an interesting and well-written adventure in one evening. :)

(This is moved from another thread.)

Hi Kirk, everyone.
The BIG advantages of programmed adventures are two fold.

-- Everything is needed to play (assuming you have Melee & Wizard) is in the package. The adventure has counters, maps, any new rules needed, and descriptions of all rooms, monsters etc. A self contained little package.

-- The programmed paragraphs allow you to play the adventure solo pretty easily.


I would love to see some new programmed adventures that can be played in an evening or two.

But I would also like to suggest a product a bit larger. This would also include new counters, etc. But rather than a programmed adventure, it is intended for a GM to run a group. It would say, cost twice as much as a programmed adventure, but rather than being a 1 or 2 day adventure, it can be written more broadly (since it can leave a lot of details to the GM). It would be suitable for 5 to 8 evenings. The price is twice as large, but the GM gets about 3 to 5 times more sessions out of it so it is worth it. (If it was 8.5 by 11 inches, it could include a GM shield, new monsters which would fit in a 3 ring binder and a single large counter sheet. I discussed this in a previous post.)

Basically, I've started to write a programmed adventure for George Dew. And I've found the format is extremely restrictive. Without the scrambled up paragraphs, I could put in twice the adventure into a given page count.


I suggest the future adventures for TFT falling into these categories.
-- Small programmed adventures. (Like Death Test, Grail Quest, etc.)

-- Medium sized adventures. (Say a double counter sheet, about twice as big as the programmed adventures but without the programmed paragraphs.)

-- Large adventure supplements. Text only so they can be sold as *.pdf's on W23. The page count can be much higher, but as digital downloads the cost is quite reasonable.

-- Large printed campaign settings. This is likely a forlorn hope unless TFT really takes off.


In summary, I think that Metagaming lost out on possible income by sticking strictly to the tiny, programmed adventures. I would strongly suggest, that SJG produces larger products for people who prefer bigger, less limited adventures.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

...Basically, I've started to write a programmed adventure for George Dew. And I've found the format is extremely restrictive. Without the scrambled up paragraphs, I could put in twice the adventure into a given page count.

While I love the MicroQuest Solo format, as you already addressed the desire for the more fleshed-out format below, along WITH the Solo-Micros, the "bigger more detailed content" is exactly what we lose in quantity of content to accommodate the "pre-programmed" engine and platform.

Sort of like writing for half-hour TV versus writing for a two hour Feature Film.

And I am with you Rick, I would like to see both the Solo-MicroQuests, AND the full-sized GM Adventure Modules (blending the lines of GURPS: Orcslayer and TFT's: Tollenkar's Lair with the accessories.

If we ever get the consumer demand for something along the lines of a Judges Guild: City-State of the Invincible Overlord, or all those wonderful GURPS world-books, that would be the sweetest, long-awaited satisfaction I could image.

As far as Product-Management is concerned, I have said this before, and I shall repeat again: I have never seen a game-line handled with so much flair, creativity, care, and proper product-placement and release date-pacing as the CAR WARS line.

That was a piece of product management that was a pleasure to behold.

Whoever was in-charge of the CARWARS line as the Product Manager - Can we get THAT guy for TFT?!

JK

[JLV]

I would love to see some larger adventures (a la Tolenkar's Lair, but with maps and counters included), as well as some new programmed ones; but I suspect a lot will depend on how well Melee and Wizard do in initial sales.

An interesting side note; for those of you not paying attention to the original Daily Illuminator thread that was launched back in December when they announced TFT was back; Phil Reed wrote a couple of days ago that we should be getting more detailed news on the upcoming TFT release within the next month or so. (Speculating here: Maybe after the end of the Ogre Miniatures Second Edition Kickstarter?) So it sounds like plans are moving forward with all due haste.

[Kirk]

ITL style adventures are OK, but my preference is for tightly done programmed adventures (which for some reason some people call solo? adventures).

The can be dialed up quickly enough by a volunteer GM and help ensure a fun time by all. Programmed adventures could even be in a series, Orb Quest II, Death Test III or whatever, allowing for larger campaigns.

Having to design an adventure from the ground up takes a *lot* of time and skill, and pre-game prep, which oftentimes means TFT is a pass and another game will hit the table.

Programmed adventures, when well written, require a lot of work up front, but once designed, should have a lot of replay value over the years. Bookish style adventures don't require the same amount of investment, and to me have less product and play value.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Kirk

ITL style adventures are OK, but my preference is for tightly done programmed adventures (which for some reason some people call solo? adventures).

You are correct KIRK; it really is not so accurate to refer to the MicroQuests purely as "Solos"; as they each served, at minimum, a three-fold function:

1. A Ready-to-Play Adventure (for Group or Solo play; with or without a GM)
2. A Reference and Rules Supplement
3. An Accessory Expansion Pack

In my case, the use of the word: Solo-Micros, is just loose jargon employed by habit for speedy reference in conversation - but at the cost negating the real form and purpose of the entire product.

Your point is well taken.

JK

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Kirk

ITL style adventures are OK, but my preference is for tightly done programmed adventures (which for some reason some people call solo? adventures). ...

Hi Everyone, Kirk.
Everyone around here always called them programmed adventures. Maybe those people who mainly bought them for solo play called them solo adventures? That would be the key selling feature for them.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Rick_Smith]

Hi everyone,
I was wanting to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of the 'scrambled paragraph' style of adventures.

ADVANTAGES:
-- These can be used as solo adventures. I can GM myself, and still be surprised by events and encounters.

This is the only advantage to this format that I can think of. (Can anyone else think of any?) Given that this is the main advantage, the reason why they are sometimes called "solo adventures" is more clear.


DISADVANTAGES:
-- It is a pain to flip thru the booklet.

-- A single paragraph missing or mislabeled can derail the adventure. For example, Interplay #2 had errata for "Security Station", paragraphs 17 and 96 had incorrect paragraph references.

-- Some space is taken up by the scrambled paragraph format.

-- Some thing which are easy normally, take a huge number of paragraphs. A game with a dungeon map shows you all spatial relationships. Describing these in programmed paragraphs is tedious and takes up a tonne of space. ("you come to a 3 way intersection. Do you go North #437, South #855, or East #1011?"). Imagine if you were asked to turn "Tollenkar's Lair" into a programmed adventure... what would the page count be?

-- The format works best for dungeons where the choices given to players are tightly constrained. (I admit that this argument is a bit weak. Grail Quest was not set in a dungeon, but it was a strong product.)

-- Trying to find something is very hard once you have gone past its paragraph.

-- The scattered format of the information can lead to problems that aggravated by the format. For example, I bought Dark City's Games: "The Crown of Kings" adventure. This was a programmed adventure, dungeon crawl.

It mostly had small rooms, and my bowman rarely was at his strongest. Then at the climax of the adventure, there was a big open area with several levels. I was up high, and could shoot at the enemy which were on the lower level. Hooray! My bowman finally came into his own! But I couldn't find the rules on how to do this. Did I have DX negatives? Were there areas which over hung enough that it would block my shot?

I could not find the answer. Finally, I visited EVERY paragraph for this section the dungeon, making notes of which paragraphs were which. The answer was not in the adventure, this question had been over looked.

In a normal adventure which was organized by area, it would be obvious very quickly that those questions were missing, and the GM would have to answer them him or herself. But in the scrambled paragraph format, I was thinking, the answer is likely just one paragraph away... but where? The adventure came to a halt while I tried to find the paragraph that described how to use my bowman.

***

I personally far preferred "Tollenkar's Lair", over "Master of the Amlets", "Unicorn Gold" or "Orb Quest". I think that Metagaming shot itself in the foot, but concentrating on this format of adventures.

I would be curious about other's thoughts on this.

Warm regards, Rick.

[tomc]

I'd include replayability as an advantage. Until you've exhausted the choices you get to see and do new stuff.

The disadvantages are magnified if the quality, especially the proofreading, is poor.

Some of the disadvantages you list are kind of subjective, and will bother some people more than others. For instance, I don't mind flipping around between the pages as much as you do.

Regarding the big multilevel room and your bowman: I find it interesting that you wanted a rule for how to handle archers in that environment. Some people play TFT more like a board game, and board game rules should cover all the situations that arise in the game. If not, it feels broken, and hurts the experience.

Others, like me, play it more like an RPG, and fudge a quick new rule when needed and move on.

I think it's a strength of Melee/Wizard/TFT that they can straddle the line between RGP and Board Game, and please people on both ends of the spectrum.

So it's important for the designer to consider both play styles when putting together a programmed adventure.

[JLV]

Stream of consciousness reply here, Rick, so bear with me...

1) It seems like the solos sold well at the time -- at least until poor editing started catching up with them later in the game. So from a marketing perspective, it was probably a good idea.

2) It was also finally being recognized that not everyone had a "group" to play RPGs with, and so the solo/programmed format at least allowed people to play SOMETHING that was RPG-ish in nature. One of my most fun adventures in TFT was playing through GrailQuest by myself; I was able to let go and wound up playing a more "Mordred-like" character than a strictly Round Table guy and had an absolute blast with the whole thing.

3) It's now 40 years later (or pretty close), and people can form groups in all kinds of ways they couldn't back then; plus hobby shops are a lot more "friendly" to play-nights and events like that these days, so perhaps the marketing pluses aren't as big now. But at the same time, I like to have the occasional solo available for those days when my group isn't available or doesn't want to play TFT (or, in my case Call of Cthulhu -- YMMV).

4) With new ideas to increase replay value and with some additional content to permit GM/group play, perhaps even tying various solos together into a mini-campaign of some kind, I think there would still be a place for solos in today's role-playing world. (For example, Marko, over on Inthelabyrinth.org, came up with a simple addition to the classic Death Test that increases replay value enormously -- he left the first and last rooms totally alone, but then you roll randomly for the rooms in between (plus he added a couple of extra rooms, if I recall correctly) so that you never get the same dungeon twice. (And since there are "extra" rooms, you won't even get all the same rooms every time!) Even something as simple as that can completely change the dynamic of the dungeon.

5) Having said all of that, I still can't disagree with your fundamental point -- that exclusively concentrating on that kind of adventure seriously limited both the material available to us as players, and failed to showcase the kind of things that could be done with TFT in more meaty adventures, like Tollenkar's Lair. All in all, I hope that Steve and company will farm out the solitaire stuff to people like Dark City Games (who do it so amazingly well), and will instead work to give us things as good as Orcslayer, Caravan to Ein Arris, The Temple of the Lost Gods and so on for TFT.

6) I WOULD hope that both Death Test and Death Test 2 will be reissued, though! ;-)

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by tomc

I'd include replayability as an advantage. Until you've exhausted the choices you get to see and do new stuff. ...

Regarding the big multilevel room and your bowman: I find it interesting that you wanted a rule for how to handle archers in that environment. Some people play TFT more like a board game, and board game rules should cover all the situations that arise in the game. If not, it feels broken, and hurts the experience.

Others, like me, play it more like an RPG, and fudge a quick new rule when needed and move on. ...

Hi JLV, Tom, Everyone.
JLV, I've not quoted your post, but I have no problem with SOME small programmed adventures coming out, but I hope for larger, more interesting projects as well.

Tom, I was perfectly willing to create rules to handle the situation, and when I discovered that the rule was missed, I did so. My point was I expected the adventure to handle, what I though was, a pretty basic case. But the scrambled format made it slow to discover that the situation was in fact missed.

Warm regards, Rick.