Self Destruct Optional Rule?

[ianargent]

I don't recall being convinced they were "strictly superior," even under GEV stacking rules. Under Ogre's (no) stacking rules, they don't work nearly as well.

Personally, I'll take about half my GEV force as LGEVs for the split-fire capability and try not to stack up too much.

[TheAmishStig]

Originally Posted by ColBosch

One of the big problems I have with BattleTech - which I also love - is that there are too many mechanics that allow for instant kills of units. That lack of "critical hits" is one of the things I most like about Ogre. A couple of good dice rolls will destroy some defenders or a couple weapons on an Ogre, but rarely does it mean that you're packing up the game early.

It's why my sister played with me once and never again. 1-on-1 just to give her a feel for it, she seemed to grok the quick blurb...and then we started to play.

She jumped, something caused a piloting roll on landing...jumped into water, jumped into rubble, not reading the rules correctly, I honestly don't remember, this was 20 years ago...but do know that she flubbed the roll and fell. Hit location: Center Torso, possible crit. Crit roll: 12 (3 hits). Crit locations: Engine, Engine, Engine.

Movement phase damage resolves immediately, so...BOOM. Her first (and only) game was over in half of one phase of one turn, as a mech jumps, bellyflops, and explodes.

That kind of dumb luck also cost my team a 5-on-5 team tournament game about 10 years ago. I was the last one left on my side...lost a completely pristine 'mech to a headshot the first time it was shot at, got down to the end where it was my two machines against his one. One was beat up pretty bad and was taking attacks of opportunity, the other had some scars but was still fighting fit...until it too got shot in the head, leaving the beat up one to run in circles in a battle of attrition that it ultimately couldn't win.

[ColBosch]

Yeah. Sometimes one-shot kills are funny, but too often they just scuttle the mood of the affected player. It's something we've been kicking about over on the BattleTech forums, since there's a general feel that the game needs a serious update for the current market.

As for the GEV ramming the Ogre anecdote, I would've allowed it. The player forgot about ramming and had he remembered, he would've done it sooner. I don't hold people's memory against them.

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by ColBosch

As for the GEV ramming the Ogre anecdote, I would've allowed it. The player forgot about ramming and had he remembered, he would've done it sooner. I don't hold people's memory against them.

I think the rules change is wrapped up in _how_ GEVs do their damage ramming; it's a function of their weapons as much as their speed.

Took a side trip down the historical rabbit hole and it looks like that exception happened as part of ODE (it isn't even in Pocket Ed), so I'm sure it would have been completely legit at the time it was used.

In any case, I would have allowed it, too. I don't punish people for rust, either. :-)

[Dave Crowell]

Pretty sure it's an ODE change to ramming. I don't recall previous editions saying anything about ramming during GEV second movement. Y2K Deluxe Ogre 5.036 says armor units ram Ogres by moving into their hex, the Ogre loses one tread and the armor unit is destroyed. Nothing in the ramming rules or the GEV second movement rules prohibits GEVs from ramming if they also attack.

Truth is I probably would have allowed it in a game today if not for this thread. After all I "know" how to play Ogre. ;)

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by Dave Crowell

Truth is I probably would have allowed it in a game today if not for this thread. After all I "know" how to play Ogre. ;)

lol. Yeah, I know what you mean. I felt the same way the first time I read the errata for GEVs having to stop at the edge of water hexes next to land and the first time I found out about the D5 SHVY.

[ianargent]

Originally Posted by ColBosch

Yeah. Sometimes one-shot kills are funny, but too often they just scuttle the mood of the affected player. It's something we've been kicking about over on the BattleTech forums, since there's a general feel that the game needs a serious update for the current market.

As for the GEV ramming the Ogre anecdote, I would've allowed it. The player forgot about ramming and had he remembered, he would've done it sooner. I don't hold people's memory against them.

The BT computer game, other than retaining head hits, seems less fluky to me that the board game did.

OTOH, in 3025, there's only a couple of single shot headcappers.

One of the things I like about Ogre is that there's less swinginess to the RNG. It's still there for the single MB Ogres, but not as important.

[pzmcgwire]

I think the ODE change to deny GEVs a ramming attack after attack is to maintain the 1 attack per unit per turn rule, since ramming could be considered a second attack and GEVs are the only units that can move after attacking.

Another ODE change appears to be that heavy tanks now cause 2 tread damage when they ram an Ogre. In the reprint pocket edition, it only says ramming armor units cause only 1 damage.

I don't know if this was errata'ed earlier but it seemed odd that an Ogre ramming a heavy tank lost two treads but vice versa was only 1 tread.

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by pzmcgwire

I think the ODE change to deny GEVs a ramming attack after attack is to maintain the 1 attack per unit per turn rule, since ramming could be considered a second attack and GEVs are the only units that can move after attacking.

Regardless of the reasoning, changing this definitely changes some endgame strategies.

Another ODE change appears to be that heavy tanks now cause 2 tread damage when they ram an Ogre. In the reprint pocket edition, it only says ramming armor units cause only 1 damage.

I don't know if this was errata'ed earlier but it seemed odd that an Ogre ramming a heavy tank lost two treads but vice versa was only 1 tread.

Yeah, that's probably why it was "fixed" with ODE.
Both the Original ODE rules and (the Battle Box rules), it covers the question:

6.07.2 Other armor ramming Ogres. Any other mobile armor unit may ram an Ogre by moving onto its hex. The Ogre loses a tread unit automatically (2 for a Heavy Tank).

It was not errata'd earlier. The 5th Edition Ogre Rules (2000), still have the generic "one tread only"

5.036 Armor units ramming Ogres. An armor unit may ram an Ogre by moving onto its hex. The Ogre loses one tread unit automatically; the armor unit is destroyed.

[offsides]

Having gone back through my rulebook archives, the GEV ramming change was definitely an ODE rule change, meaning that it was totally legal back when it happened. Now? Well I guess it would depend on which version of the rulebook was on the table, wouldn't it? :P