11-30-2016, 11:21 AM | #11 |
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Chicagoland
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Re: Technical Grappling – can someone help me figure it out?
Well, there you go. That explains it.
=) Back on topic, I'm glad you asked this question. I'm hoping that the Dungeon Grappling book I've backed on Kickstarter will have applicable explanations and detail, or otherwise help me use the GURPS version better.
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11-30-2016, 12:23 PM | #12 |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Technical Grappling – can someone help me figure it out?
If you worked with him in a professional capacity (as I have), if you gamed with him as a GM or player (as I have), or if you've relied on him to playtest your work (as most GURPS authors these days have), you'd realize he can only be costed as an Ally. Or maybe a Patron.
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11-30-2016, 01:21 PM | #13 |
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Re: Technical Grappling – can someone help me figure it out?
An army of one CP?
Anyway, my own grappling question, not limited solely to TG, so hopefully not too much of a thread hijack: Do throws break your existing grapple and/or lock? That is, do you grapple on turn 1, throw on turn 2, and then on turn 3 can just apply the lock pain and do some other attack; or do you grapple on turn 1, throw on turn 2, then attempt to re-grapple on turn 3? If the answer differs in real life, Basic, MA, and TG, I'm happy to know the answers for all four. Also if the answer differs for vanilla grapples and locks. (It currently seems to me that a lock is a sub-type of "grapple", so things true of grapples are also true of locks, unless stated otherwise.) Basic/MA RAW seems clear enough that failed attempts at throws do not break grapples, unless it's a crit fail, which does. That leaves unstated what happens on a successful throw. Since the rules don't say anything happens, normally I'd assume that you retain your lock through the throw, and still have it afterward. Glancing at a couple of YouTube videos on judo, it seems like that might be the case. They don't generally let go. But I'm unsure of the intent, especially given the particularly Sport-y nature of modern judo. |
11-30-2016, 01:32 PM | #14 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Technical Grappling – can someone help me figure it out?
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In Technical Grappling it's fairly straight-forward: if you retain CP on the thrown foe, and you don't wind up in a position where you physically cannot be said to maintain those control points, you've still got him. So if you grapple a guy, re-attack to gain an Arm Lock, and then use throws from locks to toss him, your foe remains grappled so long as you still have at least one CP. If you use your CP for the passive penalties and don't spend any motivating the throw (nor spending them to cause damage), you could theoretically do a throw and both start and end with a pretty tight grapple. I would probably rule - based on my own experience with throws - that you can't maintain a lock through a throw. But that also might be because I've never had to go full Wookiee Beowulf on a foe, and if I were feeling ornery could do so, but have been trained out of tearing my partners' arms off. The lock differs from a grapple in that usually the locked joint is considered effectively crippled - that is, it can't be used for much of anything. A grapple is just a firm, restrictive hold. Both can be used to injure - a lock based on skill (Arm Lock, defaulting to Wrestling or Judo), and a grapple based on ST (Wrench Limb). If pushed, I'd probably ask for a (perhaps penalized) arm lock roll to maintain a lock through a throw, but say that no roll is required to maintain a grapple. Of course, if you're just trying to get a foe onto the ground and not injure them in the process, Takedowns (Force Posture Change in TG) and Sweeps might be better models for that than throws. Also note a throw is pretty explicit that it happens on the turn following a grapple or parry, and while writing TG, I timed with a stopwatch many varieties of Judo Throw, and found that in many cases, the foe would spend the equivalent of nearly a full turn in the air. That's cruel and unusual punishment as a game mechanic, though. I will need to peruse the basic rule book and martial arts to answer with any sort of firm factual basis on those questions.
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12-01-2016, 10:08 AM | #15 | |
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Re: Technical Grappling – can someone help me figure it out?
Thanks.
(Though that was an 11-minute delay instead of the previous 6. Ghostdancer must have been distracted. On the other hand, that means he disposed of Agent 005 in only five minutes, so I'd better not give him a hard time about it.) Quote:
(Were I to submit editorial comments for the high-word-count version, I'd suggest one more sentence up front, such as "There are two types of Judo Throw, defensive and offensive", with the two successive paragraphs leading with a repeat of those terms, frex "You may attempt a defensive throw on your turn after a successful Judo parry" and "An offensive throw may be employed following a Grabbing Parry or offensive grapple", just to make it really obvious which rules apply to which type of throw.) It seems like a pretty easy compatible back-port to the MA interpretation; defensive throws don't require or establish grapples, offensive ones retain them, granted reasonable relative positioning. Locks break on the assumption that you spent all your CP (that the simpler, earlier systems don't even track) on the damage and influencing the attack roll. Is there a discussion somewhere of what posture and positions allow what sorts of grapples, or it that more of a common-sense, GM call, kind of thing? (I can imagine various disputes as to what you can actually hang onto behind your back, or if you're in pretzel shapes on the ground.) The fact that CP are tracked by hit location will be important here. That classic Judo grip on the gi lapel isn't something you can hold on to when the guy's on the ground (unless you want to follow him down). From skimming TG, I can understand the OP better. To answer that "where do I start" question, I'd say: with Basic, and then see how Martial Arts expands on that structure. TG isn't actually a self-contained system independent of those, but builds on them. And TG's text just jumps right in on page 4 with the new additions, assuming (quite reasonably) that you already know the basics. If you don't already have some idea of how the Basic grappling and striking rules work, and aren't used to the Techniques in MA, it would be confusing. The "Recommended Books" section on page 3 pretty much says this, but that might be easy to overlook in the "yeah, yeah, intro, author bio" section. TG is excellent for added value per word count, but that PDF alone won't serve as a good starting point if you spent all your previous GURPS time just with swords and guns and are suddenly trying out a martial arts game. A couple of old threads that might be useful, to add to the "see Doug's blog" comment: Default Unarmed Combat Flowchart and Cards [Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples |
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12-01-2016, 10:28 AM | #16 | ||
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Portsmouth, VA, USA
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Re: Technical Grappling – can someone help me figure it out?
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Hehehe. I don't sleep. Never found a reason to waste half my life being horizontal when I could be doing something useful. :-) Quote:
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12-01-2016, 07:20 PM | #17 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: Technical Grappling – can someone help me figure it out?
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I'd pay for a Pyramid (or small pamphlet version) of DF:TG. Yeah, I've always suspected he was a time traveler, seeing what people want then going back in time a writing it before they ever thought they'd need it... |
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12-01-2016, 07:56 PM | #18 |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Technical Grappling – can someone help me figure it out?
Well, if you play That Other Game, you can get one . . . four days until the Kickstarter ends.
That link goes to my blog, the category for "Dungeon Grappling."
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12-02-2016, 01:29 AM | #19 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: Technical Grappling – can someone help me figure it out?
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12-02-2016, 01:46 AM | #20 | |
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Land of the Beer, Home of the Dirndls
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Re: Technical Grappling – can someone help me figure it out?
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Tags |
gurps, technical grapping, technical grappling, wrestling |
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