IW What Ifs...?

[lazlo_woodbine]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Actually the Turks terrified Europe for only about eight hundred years

Depends where you draw the line - if you listen to certain EU parliamentarians today you'd get the impression that they're still terrified! :)

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by lazlo_woodbine

Depends where you draw the line - if you listen to certain EU parliamentarians today you'd get the impression that they're still terrified! :)

I concede the point ;-)

[walkir]

Originally Posted by lazlo_woodbine

Depends where you draw the line - if you listen to certain EU parliamentarians today you'd get the impression that they're still terrified! :)

"Stopping them in front of Vienna" is a strong and good metaphor, yes. (I have nothing against western Istanbul in the EU. But it's way to early for an Eurasian Union of any kind. Plus, they aren't ready for the EU yet. And I doubt they're willing to get ready.)

[Astromancer]

Here's a religiously based idea to try. What if Tom Paine's form of Deism had become the dominate faith/philosophical outlook in 19th Century America?

Anti-Americanism in the Romantic period was profound, the fact that America was trying to be a Democracy (something many Europeans still deny we're capable of) looked like we were trying to restart the French Revolutionary/Napoleonic wars. If Deism had become dominant in America, a profound religious revival in Europe would have been a likely reaction. A Post-Christian America might look across the Atantic to see a ultra-Orthodox Chirstian Europe. We might even be allied with a tolerant Sufi Islam to prevent European Christian Neo-Crusaders from dangerous foreign adventurism ;-)

A quick refreasher on Paine's creed...

I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.
I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our fellow-creatures happy.
But, lest it should be supposed that I believe many other things in addition to these, I shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things I do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them.
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe

With ideas like this, we might have abolished Slavery sooner with the Southerners co-operating or leading the way.

[Xenarthral]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Actually the Turks terrified Europe for only about eight hundred years.

And before the Turks, the Saracens etc. (Yes, I know I am not using the exact and correct term for each specific group and period.)
Still, the actual point was that considering the time and space involved, there
should be more Muslim than Communist parallels. The Williams-Khor Hypothesis
strikes again, I suppose.

Originally Posted by Astromancer

If Deism had become dominant in America, a profound religious revival in Europe would have been a likely reaction.

Care to explain why?
(I guess you could start with why it would make everybody in Europe convert to Orthodox Christianity, although I assume that by ultra-Orthodox you do not mean Old Believers.)

Originally Posted by Bill Cameron

Revolutionary France doesn't launch the XYZ Affair?

I only have a quick google & skim knowledge of it, but it sounds as if the
XYZ affair was not a historical inevitability and could have been butterflied
by earlier divergences. Which is also what is needed to make the US and France the kind of allies asked for.

(But, yeah, the Alternate History Discussion Board probably have more people ready, able and willing to spot and fix the important flaws. Or at least sound more convincing about it.)

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Bill Cameron

And yet you're creating a timeline that intimately involves France and America during that period.

I asked you a question: "I'm not familiar with the XYZ affair. What is it, and how did it affect North America?" Your response is not an answer to my question.

I thought you were taking part in this thread to debate AH (which is why I asked for your opinion on my modest proposal). It appears I was wrong.

Everyone else, I apologize for wasting bandwidth when I asked for that critique. I'll drop the request now.

[sjard]

Thread closed for personal attacks.