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Old 08-20-2019, 09:51 AM   #51
maximara
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
The authors didn't do the art.
But they did do the descriptions and should have known what the illustration looked like.

The description should have read thusly:

Longsword: a two handed sword generally with a straight double-edged blade weighing 2 to 3 lb (there are exceptions like the Katana). "Bastard sword" is a term that originally meant 'irregular sword or sword of uncertain origin' but in the early 20th century came to mean "a hand and half sword" and is applied to swords between a one handed arming sword and two handed longsword and generally regard as a subclass of the Longsword. Historically the term was applied varies type of swords including one handed swords with longer then "normal" blades.
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Old 08-20-2019, 10:01 AM   #52
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
OK but was 0U a new thing in 4e?!
Yes. In 3e (and earlier) "U" meant "Unbalanced" and such a weapon became Unready after being used to attack or parry.

Unless you had a ST 5 pts above mimimum. So the ST 12 Axe became the weapon of choice for ST17 Barbarians. You didn't often see Axes below that ST though.

It was also clear that magic weapons with the Quick Draw Enchantment never became Unready. Now nothing but DF Dwarves Ethnic Kewlness overcomes 0U status.
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Old 08-20-2019, 10:11 AM   #53
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
But they did do the descriptions and should have known what the illustration looked like.
that assumes the descriptions were written after the art was decided. (and to answer the follow up question I'm guessing when it comes to commissioning art for RPG books "re that piece of incidental art, you must draw it exactly like this" isn't often the industry standard

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
The description should have read thusly:

Longsword: a two handed sword generally with a straight double-edged blade weighing 2 to 3 lb (there are exceptions like the Katana). "Bastard sword" is a term that originally meant 'irregular sword or sword of uncertain origin' but in the early 20th century came to mean "a hand and half sword" and is applied to swords between a one handed arming sword and two handed longsword and generally regard as a subclass of the Longsword. Historically the term was applied varies type of swords including one handed swords with longer then "normal" blades.



got to ask though what's an irregular sword or a sword of uncertain origin? ;-)
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Old 08-20-2019, 10:13 AM   #54
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Yes. In 3e (and earlier) "U" meant "Unbalanced" and such a weapon became Unready after being used to attack or parry.

Unless you had a ST 5 pts above mimimum. So the ST 12 Axe became the weapon of choice for ST17 Barbarians. You didn't often see Axes below that ST though.

It was also clear that magic weapons with the Quick Draw Enchantment never became Unready. Now nothing but DF Dwarves Ethnic Kewlness overcomes 0U status.
Cool, so again I guess it's a bit odd that a new rule (or rather change of existing rule) and one that was going to come up a reasonably frequently in common genres didn't get play-tested at any point?
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Old 08-20-2019, 12:44 PM   #55
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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got to ask though what's an irregular sword or a sword of uncertain origin? ;-)
"Qui n'était ni Française, ni Espagnole, ni proprement Lansquenette, mais plus longue que ces fortes épées." ([a sword] which was neither French, nor Spanish, nor properly Landsknecht [German], but longer than any of these sturdy swords.") (Oeuvres - François Rabelais (écrivain), César de Missy, Jacob Le Duchat, Louis-Fabricius Dubourg, Bernard Picart, Pieter Tanjé, Balthasar Bernaerts, Jacob Folkema. p. 129.)

The term "bastard sword" was ill defined until the 19th century. In fact, different experts before the 19th century would call the exact same sword a longsword or a bastard sword based on totally arbitrary criteria.

The really sad thing is Nick Evangelista's The Encyclopedia of the Sword via Greenwood Publishing Group ("educational and academic publisher which is today part of ABC-CLIO" ie one of the reliable sources for wikipedia references) would have fixed much of this nonsense.

Evangelista's book came out in 1995, Low Tech for 3e GURPS came out in 2001 with a reprint in 2004. The 4e version came out in 2010.

Last edited by maximara; 08-20-2019 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 08-20-2019, 12:47 PM   #56
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Cool, so again I guess it's a bit odd that a new rule (or rather change of existing rule) and one that was going to come up a reasonably frequently in common genres didn't get play-tested at any point?
My guess is that the testers either didn't encounter it in their games (no super strong characters wielding an otherwise unbalanced melee weapon), out of habit just assumed that it worked like in 3E when they did have to use it or they used it and thought it worked fine.
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Old 08-21-2019, 01:40 AM   #57
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
"Qui n'était ni Française, ni Espagnole, ni proprement Lansquenette, mais plus longue que ces fortes épées." ([a sword] which was neither French, nor Spanish, nor properly Landsknecht [German], but longer than any of these sturdy swords.") (Oeuvres - François Rabelais (écrivain), César de Missy, Jacob Le Duchat, Louis-Fabricius Dubourg, Bernard Picart, Pieter Tanjé, Balthasar Bernaerts, Jacob Folkema. p. 129.)

The term "bastard sword" was ill defined until the 19th century. In fact, different experts before the 19th century would call the exact same sword a longsword or a bastard sword based on totally arbitrary criteria.

The really sad thing is Nick Evangelista's The Encyclopedia of the Sword via Greenwood Publishing Group ("educational and academic publisher which is today part of ABC-CLIO" ie one of the reliable sources for wikipedia references) would have fixed much of this nonsense.

Evangelista's book came out in 1995, Low Tech for 3e GURPS came out in 2001 with a reprint in 2004. The 4e version came out in 2010.
Right the problem here is what's a "french" sword, what's a "Spanish" one etc?

We think those nation's only ever produced one identifiable type of sword throughout the entire time frame of bastard and long swords, or even just at the time that reference was written about? (sorry that's a rhetorical question, the quote is taken from it's own context that informs it's meaning, i.e. I'm sure the authors know what they meant by French sword and Spanish sword at the time, but broadening that out to the more general subject here is not easy)

More importantly what's not any of those things, since that is what's actually being described as a bastard sword? I.e. what is a bastard sword, not what is it not?

So yep I agree ill defined is exactly right, I think you quote supports that very well, and I also agree experts used long sword and bastard sword almost interchangeably.

However what that means is that a book written in 1995 is not suddenly going to rediscover the precise definition of these things though history, because these things didn't have them.

It is at best a way after the events re-sorting and categorisation of things. And yeah OK that's cool, even useful. But no its not some retroactive this is how things were

More relevantly it doesn't matter for the issues you raise about LT, LT does describe what it's defining and give stats accordingly.

Out of interest what are the precise and one assumes distinct and mutually exclusive definition's of long sword and bastard sword given by The Encyclopedia of the Sword (that presumably are counter to the descriptions in LT?)
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Old 08-21-2019, 03:12 PM   #58
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Out of interest what are the precise and one assumes distinct and mutually exclusive definition's of long sword and bastard sword given by The Encyclopedia of the Sword (that presumably are counter to the descriptions in LT?)
The really great thing about The Encyclopedia of the Sword is it is heavily referenced

Bastard Sword (pg 48): "also known as the hand and a half sword, the bastard sword was a long, straight-bladed weapon dating from 1490, with a plain cross guard, long grip, and rounded pommel. Blades averages forty inches in length, but some were as long as fifty inches." This works to 4.17 to 5 feet long. "The term bastard undoubtedly comes from the fact that the sword has, because of its design, no legitimate claim to being classified as either a single-handed or two-handed weapon" (Charles Henry Ashdown (1967) European Arms & Armor; George Cameron Stone (1961) A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor: in All Countries and in All Times, reprinted as part of the Dover Military History, Weapons, Armor series in 1999)

Long Sword (pg 364): "The long sword was of the two handed variety. It was invariable a cutting weapon and was always, because of its length and weight used on foot. Blades of these weapons often reached five feet and more in length. The long sword family includes the claymore, the spandon, the espadon, the zweyhander, and the flamberge" (Egerton Castle (1885) Schools and Masters of Fence: From the Middle Ages to the Eighteenth Century)

Last edited by maximara; 08-22-2019 at 05:32 AM.
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Old 08-21-2019, 09:45 PM   #59
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

To put another band-aid on the problem, you could mess around with PK's technique from MyGURPS.

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Originally Posted by PK
Balanced Swing (Hard)
Default: Prerequisite skill-3; cannot exceed prerequisite skill.
Prerequisite: Any melee weapon skill.

When using an unbalanced weapon (one with "U" in the Parry), you may attack with Balanced Swing to return your weapon to the guard position immediately after your strike. This lets you parry with it normally afterward, effectively ignoring the "U." In Martial Arts terms, this is a special type of Defensive Attack without the damage penalty; it thus cannot be used with Committed Attack or All-Out Attack, both of which prevent parries anyway, or with any of the other options for Defensive Attack.

(Built as +2 damage (-4) but only to cancel out the -2 damage when doing a Defensive Attack to keep an unbalanced weapon ready (+1).)
Now, it seems fair to move in the other direction. If you use a bastard sword for a full-skill attack, you could use this technique to Parry at -3.

And it would be interesting to couple this with the old 3e rule that I had never heard of before (about minST+5 canceling out the "U"). Maybe every point of ST above minST reduces that penalty by -1. So, that ends up being minST+3 (i.e., ST 14) to cancel out the "U". That seems a little low, but the bastard sword is still a balanced weapon. So, if I were to extrapolate, maybe, for other unbalanced weapons (e.g., axes, maces, etc.), every two points of ST above minST reduces that penalty by -1. So, that means minST+6 cancels out the "U", which is pretty close to the 3e rule of minST+5.

Just going with my gut, I think that sounds like a great compromise for the bastard sword and a good compromise for unbalanced weapons in general.

(Also, I'd definitely switch the names of the longsword and the bastard sword—it makes enough sense to me! Watching these YouTube videos has made me an instant expert. Just add water!)
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Old 08-22-2019, 06:01 AM   #60
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Long Sword (pg 364): "The long sword was of the two handed variety. It was invariable a cutting weapon and was always, because of its length and weight used on foot. Blades of these weapons often reached five feet and more in length. The long sword family includes the claymore, the spandon, the espadon, the zweyhander, and the flamberge" (Egerton Castle (1885) Schools and Masters of Fence: From the Middle Ages to the Eighteenth Century)
Pity that that does not describe the swords used in 'German longsword' fighting, which were thrusting as much as cutting weapons, and might be used in one hand instead of two. Therefore, if the above definition is definitive, the German longsword users were not, in fact, using longswords.
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