So what does Form Mastery (Spear) actually do?

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

The rules are in MA, not Low-Tech.

If they are I can't find them. Page reference? It's definitely not on the Weapon Table under Staff.

It's pretty obviously intended, at least by some of the authors, and a relatively easy fix in several different ways - including just adding it to the Weapon Table myself, but it really does seem to be an errata of [some] sort.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by malloyd

If they are I can't find them. Page reference? It's definitely not on the Weapon Table under Staff.

It's pretty obviously intended, at least by some of the authors, and a relatively easy fix in several different ways - including just adding it to the Weapon Table myself, but it really does seem to be an errata of [some] sort.

In the first reply to this thread, it says Martial Arts page 104, but I am away from my copy. I agree that it should be in the weapons table in Low Tech (unless they decide you can only parry not strike or thrust using Staff skill?), they clarified that you can use Duelling Polearms to parry and do Cr damage with Staff skill in Low Tech. I was on that playtest and obviously I missed that.

I don't think this is a big deal, but it would be nice if it were clearer.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

In the first reply to this thread, it says Martial Arts page 104, but I am away from my copy.

It's in the "Example" at the bottom of the page. Which is a relatively poor example if it gives you a new rule with no guidance on how to get a similar rule for any *other* case. It is kind of interesting though, in that it specifically says if you use the spear with Staff you are limited to crushing damage. Apparently whoever wrote that assumed you couldn't use the spear point with Staff at all.

It really does look to me like there was, or was supposed to be, something elsewhere that got dropped for some reason.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by malloyd

It's in the "Example" at the bottom of the page. Which is a relatively poor example if it gives you a new rule with no guidance on how to get a similar rule for any *other* case. It is kind of interesting though, in that it specifically says if you use the spear with Staff you are limited to crushing damage. Apparently whoever wrote that assumed you couldn't use the spear point with Staff at all.

Yes, it is one of the topics where grognards know Kromm's house rules, but what the actual published rules say is a bit different (and you have to be an expert to know about that one line in one book). Unfortunately, with the current errata backlog (and focus on typos over substantive changes) I doubt it will be fixed. Its easy to houserule.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by malloyd

It's in the "Example" at the bottom of the page. Which is a relatively poor example if it gives you a new rule with no guidance on how to get a similar rule for any *other* case. It is kind of interesting though, in that it specifically says if you use the spear with Staff you are limited to crushing damage. Apparently whoever wrote that assumed you couldn't use the spear point with Staff at all.

It really does look to me like there was, or was supposed to be, something elsewhere that got dropped for some reason.

Besides p104, there is p50, in the form mastery perk :

For instance, you could start your
turn using a spear with the Staff skill, switch to the Spear
skill to attack, and then return to Staff for parrying.

Also p 193 and p198

[Plane]

Originally Posted by malloyd

It's in the "Example" at the bottom of the page. Which is a relatively poor example if it gives you a new rule with no guidance on how to get a similar rule for any *other* case.

It is kind of interesting though, in that it specifically says if you use the spear with Staff you are limited to crushing damage. Apparently whoever wrote that assumed you couldn't use the spear point with Staff at all.

M104's "limits him to staff techniques, crushing damage" does seem strange since B273 does include a thrust-based attack.

Interesting to note is how it notes "blunt end" for the Naginata, so using the non-blunt end of the Naginata is covered by B272's polearm skill.

Meaning I guess (let's ignore spears and focus on polearms a moment!) that you couldn't do a crushing (thrust or swing) attack with the Naginata in the same turn you used it's edge to swing/cut or thrust/impale unless you had Form Mastery?

It seems strange because I could imagine an untrained person (no purchased perk) possibly doing an AOA:Double to try and bash someone with the blunt end and then hit with the sharp/poky end...

What if instead of free actions, shifting weapon skills was always treated as requiring a ready, but with the option to reduce it to free on a successful roll, with a big bonus if number of hands didn't need to change?

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

Besides p104, there is p50, in the form mastery perk :

P104 explicitly disallowed attacking as a Spear and then defending as a Staff without Form mastery.

In fact, you plan on defending as a Staff (without Form Mastery) you are denied implying or cutting (tip slash) damage.

Also p 193 and p198

More Form Mastery.

Which is explicitly not what Pane has been asking about. Some in this thread have been acting as though Martial Arts allowed attacking with the spear head using the Staff skill and it explicitly does not.



Personally, I house ruled that nonsense away. Want a stabby end on your Staff? Go for it. The difference between between Staff and Spear is Staff cannot be used one-handed, and in my games Staff cannot get the Weapon Fencer Perk.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

The difference between between Staff and Spear is Staff cannot be used one-handed

That seems one key point to zero in on.

That the staff skill has "thrust crushing" attack might lead some to assume "I'm poking with the tip" but perhaps the thrust attack is actually hitting with the sides, which would explain why you couldn't use the staff skill to do a thrust/impaling attack with a spear.

As for the Ferrules (LTC1p14) problem (-1 to both thrusting and swinging damage) I would say that what even though they are "end caps" you could still be hitting with the sides of them.

My guess is that if you used a spear to hit like a staff, the pointy end of the spear would have a metal mount which would function like a ferrule (to avoid the -1 damage penalty when making crushing attacks) but I'm not sure whether the opposite end would...

It might depend on the model. this one seems to have a metal cap on the non-pointy end, whereas this does not.

For that reason though... maybe there should be a damage penalty when hitting with a staff in close combat where it would be difficult to bring the ferrules to bear? Or something like a -4 to skill to hit with the ferrules (each a yard away) to avoid the damage penalty?