Splitting up the Thief talent

[Steve Jackson]

One way to do it: substitute for Thief and Master Thief:

Locksmith (1). Ability to open locks. Requires specialized tools which have no significant weight. To pick an ordinary lock, roll 3 dice vs. DX; you may try once per minute until you succeed. This skill is of less use against magically locked doors (see Doors, p. 00), and some locks require more than 3 dice to pick. The Thieves’ Guild teaches this talent; see Thieves’ Guild. But there are legitimate locksmiths too.
The GM may let non-Thief characters try to pick very simple locks, at a penalty of one or more dice.

Pickpocket (1): Roll 3 dice vs. DX to pick a pocket or steal a purse; failure means you’re noticed. Roll only 2 dice if some distraction is arranged to fool your victim. Pickpocketing with subtlety is hard and unskilled rolls should not be allowed. The Thieves’ Guild teaches this talent; see Thieves’ Guild.

Master Locksmith (1). Prerequisites: Locksmith talent and DX 13 or better. You roll 1 fewer dice to pick any lock. This talent may be learned from the Thieves’ Guild (q.v.).

Master Pickpocket (1). Prerequisites: Pickpocket talent and DX 14 or better. You roll 1 fewer dice to pick any pocket. This talent must be learned from the Thieves’ Guild (q.v.).

Streetwise (1): Knowledge of the local underworld and the Thieves’ Argot, the secret slang of thieves. Roll vs. IQ to find fences, smugglers, or other criminal businessmen, or to “blend in” in a dive bar or the like, even in a strange town.

[Terquem]

I have always liked the idea that "thieves" and "Cat Burglars" are different sorts of characters requiring different sorts of talents

Building a character to pick pockets and survive on the streets might be different from building a character to scale walls and sneak into townhouses to engage in some creative borrowing

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

One way to do it: substitute for Thief and Master Thief:

Locksmith (1). Ability to open locks. Requires specialized tools which have no significant weight. To pick an ordinary lock, roll 3 dice vs. DX; you may try once per minute until you succeed. This skill is of less use against magically locked doors (see Doors, p. 00), and some locks require more than 3 dice to pick. The Thieves’ Guild teaches this talent; see Thieves’ Guild. But there are legitimate locksmiths too.
The GM may let non-Thief characters try to pick very simple locks, at a penalty of one or more dice.

Pickpocket (1): Roll 3 dice vs. DX to pick a pocket or steal a purse; failure means you’re noticed. Roll only 2 dice if some distraction is arranged to fool your victim. Pickpocketing with subtlety is hard and unskilled rolls should not be allowed. The Thieves’ Guild teaches this talent; see Thieves’ Guild.

Master Locksmith (1). Prerequisites: Locksmith talent and DX 13 or better. You roll 1 fewer dice to pick any lock. This talent may be learned from the Thieves’ Guild (q.v.).

Master Pickpocket (1). Prerequisites: Pickpocket talent and DX 14 or better. You roll 1 fewer dice to pick any pocket. This talent must be learned from the Thieves’ Guild (q.v.).

Streetwise (1): Knowledge of the local underworld and the Thieves’ Argot, the secret slang of thieves. Roll vs. IQ to find fences, smugglers, or other criminal businessmen, or to “blend in” in a dive bar or the like, even in a strange town.

Hi Steve, everyone.
I'm fine with this. Generally, I prefer talents that do one thing, than grab bag talents that do a lot of different things.

I would write, "Locksmith is taught by Locksmiths AND the thieves guild..." etc.

You might want to write somewhere that to build locks you need Mechanician talent.

Warm regards, Rick.

[JLV]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

One way to do it: substitute for Thief and Master Thief:

Locksmith (1). Ability to open locks. Requires specialized tools which have no significant weight. To pick an ordinary lock, roll 3 dice vs. DX; you may try once per minute until you succeed. This skill is of less use against magically locked doors (see Doors, p. 00), and some locks require more than 3 dice to pick. The Thieves’ Guild teaches this talent; see Thieves’ Guild. But there are legitimate locksmiths too.
The GM may let non-Thief characters try to pick very simple locks, at a penalty of one or more dice.

Pickpocket (1): Roll 3 dice vs. DX to pick a pocket or steal a purse; failure means you’re noticed. Roll only 2 dice if some distraction is arranged to fool your victim. Pickpocketing with subtlety is hard and unskilled rolls should not be allowed. The Thieves’ Guild teaches this talent; see Thieves’ Guild.

Master Locksmith (1). Prerequisites: Locksmith talent and DX 13 or better. You roll 1 fewer dice to pick any lock. This talent may be learned from the Thieves’ Guild (q.v.).

Master Pickpocket (1). Prerequisites: Pickpocket talent and DX 14 or better. You roll 1 fewer dice to pick any pocket. This talent must be learned from the Thieves’ Guild (q.v.).

Streetwise (1): Knowledge of the local underworld and the Thieves’ Argot, the secret slang of thieves. Roll vs. IQ to find fences, smugglers, or other criminal businessmen, or to “blend in” in a dive bar or the like, even in a strange town.

This is one of those areas where I feel a little more "granularity" in the skill sets is of more use in the game. It gives thieves both some differentiation in the beginning, and it gives them more new skills to strive for in the long game. I would very much support this change.

[tbeard1999]

I wouldn't split them up. Most thieves are going to take the entire package and talent creep will slow character generation down (which is a major TFT strength).

[larsdangly]

Please do; I like the idea of being able to piece together the sort of character I'd like. And, you already separate silent movement and hiding ('spy').

Caveat: so long as the 'talent growth' doesn't go much beyond ~50 % increase over the original ITL

[luguvalium]

It makes sense to split these up.

What IQ is required for each talent? 10 for locksmith, pickpocket, and streetwise? 12 for master locksmith and master pickpocket?

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

I would write, "Locksmith is taught by Locksmiths AND the thieves guild..." etc.

There could be a separate Locksmiths Guild, but I think it would make sense for the Mechanicians Guild to teach locksmithing. If you know how enough to make locks, you know enough to pick them. But the Theives and Mechanicians Guild would try to keep this skill a secret and not teach it to outsiders under normal circumstances.

[Steve Jackson]

I actually wrote a line about the Locksmiths' Guild and then erased it because of word count creep. Yes, in all but the largest cities the Locksmiths would be a SIG, so to speak, under the Mechanicians.

If the Thieves' Guild were really an organized thing, they would probably have an annual contest with the Locksmiths!

[larsdangly]

I can see why these were bundled originally; it is one of several little corners of the game that always reminded me a bit of the way Dragonquest bundled skills together into a small number (about a dozen) 'mega skills' that acted almost like D+D classes (except you could distribute your EXP to rise in as many or as few of those 'skill-classes' as you wish). It is a clever, elegant way to simplify a skill-based game. BUT that isn't really how most of TFT works, and you would have to walk a long way down that path before you got to something significantly different (even if that was something you wanted). So, I'd say it is a better design idea to do what you are suggesting.

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

I wouldn't split them up. Most thieves are going to take the entire package and talent creep will slow character generation down (which is a major TFT strength).

I was originally going to agree with this but upon checking the rules I discovered that the cost is the same: a total of 4 points to max out either way.

So, I now think it's a good idea, it allows for a more nuanced character. It might allow them to save an extra point or two for Silent movement etc.