Technique for Acting/Disguise to pass as opposite gender

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Rupert

For the Acting part, I think you'll have to decide based on how gendered you think day to day behaviour, speech, etc. is in your setting. If the vocabulary used by men and women is quite different, or the way they structure their sentences, impersonating the opposite gender when interacting with people will be much harder than in a place where the only difference is the degree of profanity used (especially as a boy is probably not expected to swear as much as an older man, so pretending to be a boy won't be much of a stretch).

When it comes to disguise a fair bit is also going to depend on how revealing the clothing is, and how thick. If it's medieval to pre-industrial northern Europe in layers and weight, it'll be a heck of a lot easier than on some pre-European contact Pacific Islands.

OTOH, one reason this often happens in cultures with strong binary gender norms could be that people in those cultures aren't used to looking closely to try to guess someone's sex. There is the famous story from 19th century Prussia where a swindler stole a uniform and managed to take over a small town for a few days because he looked like an army officer and barked orders like an army officer and nobody dared to ask questions. That Egyptian woman who realized that she could get better work as a Mr. than as a Mrs. and spent 10 years living her work days accordingly does not sound like an expert deceiver.

I agree that its more plausible the more clothing people of the target gender wear. And I like the idea of a Technique to represent the one-off cost of learning things like how to catch thrown objects or carry a water jar on your head or speak your gender's dialect or not get excited by shiny swords.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Rupert

If the vocabulary used by men and women is quite different, or the way they structure their sentences, impersonating the opposite gender when interacting with people will be much harder . . .

Add stress patterns and intonations to that. There are quite a few places where those are gendered. I once encountered an optometrist who was obviously from Edinburgh by her accent, but pronounced her technical vocabulary like a man from Glasgow, which sounded really weird. She'd trained there, as one of two women in a class of 40, so it made sense.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Attractive Appearance can cover a lot of different ground.

We have the two defaults:

"Sexy Masculine Attractive" which gives a bonus to Sex Appeal against those attracted to males, and a +1 reaction from EVERYONE.

"Sexy Feminine Attractive" which gives a bonus to Sex Appeal against those attracted to females, and a +1 reaction from EVERYONe.

Or "Impressive Attractive" which gives a bonus to Intimidate against EVERYONE and a +1 reaction from EVERYONE.

I'm not sure if Androgynous Attractive could exist since you can't cut a +1 bonus to Sex Appeal in half. I guess I don't have a problem with someone taking it if they just want the +1 reaction for 4 points but don't want to take a bonus to either skill.

Am I missing some benefit here, like where it's bad to be attractive? Panhandling comes to mind but I don't think it distinguishes between the different types of attractive.

The "jealous members of the same sex" aspect of the "Very" B/H seems like something that should maybe apply to all categories somehow, not just that one tier.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Plane

We have the two defaults:

"Sexy Masculine Attractive" which gives a bonus to Sex Appeal against those attracted to males, and a +1 reaction from EVERYONE.

"Sexy Feminine Attractive" which gives a bonus to Sex Appeal against those attracted to females, and a +1 reaction from EVERYONe.

The way you describe that suggests the same thing acrosome seemed to be considering: that being attractive to those attracted to your sex means having looks that emphasize your sex.

And I think you'll find the rules don't say that.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The way you describe that suggests the same thing acrosome seemed to be considering: that being attractive to those attracted to your sex means having looks that emphasize your sex.

And I think you'll find the rules don't say that.

They don't, which is wise given that at least part of attractiveness is cultural. It's probably going to be easier for a beautiful but relatively 'non-feminine' (by the West's traditional standards) to pass as a man in a society that considers 'bish' guys to be attractive than it would be for them to pass in one where male attractiveness is about large muscular upper bodies and full, lush beards.

Of course, if all adult men are expected to sport facial hair, a woman who wants to pass as one is either going to have to invest a fair bit of time and money in obtaining and maintaining a false beard and/or moustache, or they'll have to pass as a youth, which most likely means trading Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen) or Social Stigma (Valued Property) for Social Stigma (Minor). Presumably in the case of the former, the restrictions of being a 'boy' are less inconvenient for the character than those of being a 'woman'. Of course with care they might be able to slip between them, depending of circumstance, and thus mitigate the worst of the limitations and enjoy the best of the benefits.

I would expect that if being exposed had serious consequences these characters would have (temporary) Secret, aside from the greater one of 'female ninja'.

[Alden Loveshade]

If you want to get technical, there's also an age factor.

Boys and girls might find this easier to do than biological adults. And men and women often start to look more similar to each other as they age.

As this is Halloween, I remember dressing up as a girl to go Trick or Treating when I was about 10 years old. If people didn't already know me, as far as I could tell they truly believed I was a girl.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The way you describe that suggests the same thing acrosome seemed to be considering:
that being attractive to those attracted to your sex
means having looks that emphasize your sex.

And I think you'll find the rules don't say that.

Only in the case of the basic forms (handsome/beautiful)

If the looks don't emphasize the sex then I would consider them to be androgynous looks.

I infer an implication of androgynous looks is that non-androgynous sexual attractiveness is either "androus" (masculine) or "gynous" (feminine) in nature.

Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade

If you want to get technical, there's also an age factor.

Boys and girls might find this easier to do than biological adults.

And men and women often start to look more similar to each other as they age.

I would explain this as a shift from Androgynous+Pitiable to Sexy to Impressive, I guess?

Androgynous/Impressive only exists for above-average looks though...

B22's Pitiable means you are “cute” instead of “sexy” is something I've not been able to find mechanics for...

I feel like they only had the reaction bonus in mind, but what is this meant to do for skill bonuses?

It feels like it should replace the Sex Appeal bonus with something else, but definitely not Intimidation like Impressive (tigers and old kings) does...

Fast Talk perhaps?

This should basically define a new attractiveness tier 'cuteness' which is mandatory if you have Pitiable?

Originally Posted by Rupert

They don't, which is wise given that at least part of attractiveness is cultural. It's probably going to be easier for a beautiful but relatively 'non-feminine' (by the West's traditional standards) to pass as a man in a society that considers 'bish' guys to be attractive than it would be for them to pass in one where male attractiveness is about large muscular upper bodies and full, lush beards.

You can fake beards, and even muscles in full covering (could even make it easier to obscure chest bindings) but are going to have problems when the guys are wrestling barechested.

[transmetahuman]

I'm puzzled by the idea that an attractive/beautiful woman is automatically "more feminine" than an average woman. Annie Lennox springs to mind. Whether or not you consider her truly androgenous, she certainly doesn't have exaggerated female secondary sexual characteristics, and quite a few people have found her quite attractive.

[Alden Loveshade]

Originally Posted by Plane

If the looks don't emphasize the sex then I would consider them to be androgynous looks.

I would agree. All (or virtually all) human beings start out looking androgynous, which doesn't change for several years.

Originally Posted by Plane

B22's Pitiable means you are “cute” instead of “sexy” is something I've not been able to find mechanics for...

If I'm understanding your question correctly, you add the situational modifier for Pitiable (do you look like you're in need, etc.) and any modifiers for appearance. It does leave the question, which might be what you're asking, of what about having a character that's both Pitiable and has Sex Appeal, and is that even possible in game terms?

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

I'm puzzled by the idea that an attractive/beautiful woman is automatically "more feminine" than an average woman.

You may well be speaking of comments in this discussion. If you're speaking of GURPS rules, there's a game balance issue. By the Basic Set p. 21, "Androgynous: If your appearance is Handsome (Beautiful) or better, you may specify that your looks appeal equally to both sexes." For Androgynous Handsome (Beautiful), you get +3 to both sexes instead of +2/+4 depending on sex. So the benefits are equal for equal points.

As real-life societies continue to change, including in views of sex/gender/etc., I do wonder if future GURPS books will expand beyond two sexes....

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade

If I'm understanding your question correctly, you add the situational modifier for Pitiable (do you look like you're in need, etc.) and any modifiers for appearance. It does leave the question, which might be what you're asking, of what about having a character that's both Pitiable and has Sex Appeal, and is that even possible in game terms?

Well, of course it is. Though you have to consider that Pitiable is an advantage, whereas Sex Appeal is a skill (are you maybe thinking of gendered Attractive+ appearance?). But it's perfectly possible to be attractive and desirable AND have people want to take care of you. See for example the classic anime Big Eyes Small Mouth look; if I understand it right, the adjective moe specifically describes this effect. I think the combination is more likely to be found in female characters in most cultures, but take a look for example at Michelangelo's David. (As opposed to Bernini's, who doesn't need anyone to take care of him!)

A Sex Appeal roll would profit from Attractive appearance. It might profit from Pitiable if you were approaching someone who found a measure of helplessness or vulnerability alluring, but that's very much a judgment call