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Old 04-22-2018, 01:17 PM   #41
evileeyore
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
IAnd that problem has been solve with the Ultra-Tech hiking rate.
High tech, those rules are in High Tech. ;)
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Old 04-22-2018, 03:36 PM   #42
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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High tech, those rules are in High Tech. ;)
Yes. Sorry for the error ... It's in High-Tech, page 55. And thanks for having corrected it.
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Old 04-22-2018, 10:50 PM   #43
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Missed sleep falls into the overarching problem of Fatigue being used to emulate far too many things in Gurps.
Starvation, dehydration, burst energy, moderate energy, one day can't maintain extreme energy, sleep, electrical attacks, stunning, etc.
I understand why it's done, but trying to make any one of them realistic would likely require rebuilding each set of rules from the ground up.
I agree. After the End introduces Long-Term Fatigue, which is a good rule! What I love about GURPS is how easy it is to hack and modify. Make your own house rules for starvation, dehydration, etc.! I did a hack on Starvation based on a character's percent body fat and build, and the effects of starvation - losing fat and muscle mass. It worked pretty well, but my wife is a dietitian and I had access to some pretty good research material and feedback.
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Old 11-25-2020, 12:59 AM   #44
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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Hello ladies and guys!

I was reading again some rules and suddenly realize that I don't understand one. At least, I suppose I don't understand it, because the results I find sounds silly.

It is the Missed Sleep rule (Basic Set, Campaigns, page 426, 427).

As far as I understand it, when you have to wake up 1 hour earlier, you subtract 2 hours from your normal day. Said like that, everything sounds normal ... as long as you only do it once or twice.

But suppose a real example: Joe Average usually goes to bed at 11 PM and wakes up at 7 AM. No problem for him. He sleeps 8 hours a day and his normal day lasts 16 hours. One week, Joe Average has more work to do. He must absolutely do it. To do it, he decides to wake up one hour earlier. He now goes to bed at 11 PM, as usual, but wake up at 6 AM.

Following the rules as I understand them, here is what happens.
  • Monday, 1 hour of missed sleep, normal day reduced by 2 hours, he begins to get tired at 8 PM and since he goes to bed only at 11 PM, he takes 1 FP. He has 9 FP left.
  • Tuesday, 1 hour more of missed sleep, normal day reduced by 4 hours, he begins to get tired at 6 PM and since he goes on going to bed only at 11 PM, he takes 2 FP more (one when he fails to go to sleep plus 1 after 4 hours). He has 7 FP left.
  • Wednesday, 1 hour more of missed sleep, normal day reduced by 6 hours, he begins to get tired at 4 PM and since he goes on going to bed only at 11 PM, he takes 2 FP more (one when he fails to go to sleep plus 1 after 4 hours). He has 5 FP left.
  • Thursday, 1 hour more of missed sleep, normal day reduced by 4 hours, he begins to get tired at 2 PM and since he goes on going to bed only at 11 PM, he takes 3 FP more (one when he fails to go to sleep plus 1 every 4 hours after that). He has 2 FP left.
  • Friday, 1 hour more of missed sleep, normal day reduced by 2 hours, he begins to get tired at 12 and since he goes on going to bed only at 11 PM, he takes 3 FP more (one when he fails to go to sleep plus 1 after 4 hours). He has -1 FP left. He is “on the verge of collapse” and loses 1 HP.

And if he goes on doing that a couple of days, he will have to go to hospital!

It sounds more than harsh. I’ve done that several times. Sure, I was exhausted and had to sleep more than 8 hours during the week-end but wasn’t at all “on the verge of collapse”.

So, I’m sure I’m wrong about the rules. Can someone explain how it really works?


A.) i know this post is quite old
B.) i dont play 4th ed so im a little unfamiliar with how certain things work

however my understanding of most sleep deprevation rules in most rpgs is that they assume your doing alot of physically demanding stuff that day,

ask a fast food worker to work 7 days straight with less sleep then usual they will be grumpy but fine (maybe -2 fatigue at the end of the week)

ask a marathon runner to run 7 days straight on 6 hours of sleep, they may actually need to go to the hospital
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Old 11-25-2020, 12:23 PM   #45
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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Originally Posted by Oleander View Post
A.) i know this post is quite old
B.) i dont play 4th ed so im a little unfamiliar with how certain things work

however my understanding of most sleep deprevation rules in most rpgs is that they assume your doing alot of physically demanding stuff that day,

ask a fast food worker to work 7 days straight with less sleep then usual they will be grumpy but fine (maybe -2 fatigue at the end of the week)

ask a marathon runner to run 7 days straight on 6 hours of sleep, they may actually need to go to the hospital
This is a good point. Indeed, GURPS meals are usually somewhere between 1000 and 1200 kcal, and characters are assumed to be active enough to require 3 of those each day (note the higher value is consistent with what the military expects active soldiers to need).

That said, I suspect the missed sleep rules are still overly harsh. Indeed, most FP-loss is overly harsh - plenty of soldiers have had to deal with sufficiently reduced sleep and meals in the field to have outright died from it by GURPS rules, but kept on going.
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Old 11-25-2020, 02:51 PM   #46
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
[*]Monday, 1 hour of missed sleep, normal day reduced by 2 hours, he begins to get tired at 8 PM and since he goes to bed only at 11 PM, he takes 1 FP. He has 9 FP left.[*]Tuesday, 1 hour more of missed sleep, normal day reduced by 4 hours, he begins to get tired at 6 PM and since he goes on going to bed only at 11 PM, he takes 2 FP more (one when he fails to go to sleep plus 1 after 4 hours). He has 7 FP left.
The problem I have at this point in time is that he has slept 14 hours yet that hasn't resulted in any FP recovery.

The idea that only sleeping 7h59m daily is going to eventually doom somebody seems wrong. Something shouldn't just not count for being shy of an ideal.

For that reason I think one approach that should help in reducing the impact of these rules is to treat sleep you have as cumulative to fulfilling this quota.

IE yes, that first 7 hours you get no reward (since you need 8 hours to restore the 1st FP) but he gets in that 8th hour from 11pm Tuesday to 12pm Wednesday, recovering 1 FP (bringing him up to 8 FP) and then Midnight until 2 am could recover the next 2 FP.

I'm probably interpreting the 'uninterrupted' req wrong, maybe it's just apt to assume a lot of humans train up the non-exotic "Less Sleep" physical advantage via lifestyle, just like babies probably start off with the 'Extra Sleep' disad.

Would like to see an approach where you have "Sleep Hour Interval Points" (SHIPs) that are tacked off during hours of wakefulness and sleep.

This would help with covering what the benefit of 1-3 hour nap would be, if it's not capable of reversing FP loss, at least it's capable in counting towards total sleep requirements to prevent further loss?
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Old 11-25-2020, 04:26 PM   #47
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

From what I've read, the amount of sleep one needs is genetic. Only the amount one can handle the deleterious effects of insufficient sleep can be trained.
But also, I believe I read something semi-recently that despite the beliefs to the contrary, one can stock up a hint of "sleep reserve" for later use.

A few genes connected with lowered sleep requirements have been found. They've even been shown to have the same effect when transferred to non-humans.
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Old 11-25-2020, 04:52 PM   #48
Plane
 
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
From what I've read, the amount of sleep one needs is genetic.
Only the amount one can handle the deleterious effects of insufficient sleep can be trained.
I think more would be at play than genes, like your activity levels, if you're sick, how well you're eating...

Converting a physical advantage into a mental one can be done by adding a modifier which introduces a mental attribute roll though: Less Sleep (Requires Will Roll) for example is now mental so if you left your body you'd take it with you (someone possessing your body can't use it) and bring it to whatever new body you inhabit.

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
I believe I read something semi-recently that despite the beliefs to the contrary, one can stock up a hint of "sleep reserve" for later use.
FP+5 (only for Sleeping -80%) [3] at best, perhaps?

You wouldn't be able to spent it on Extra Effort and if your normal FP was brought to 0 by stuff other than sleep (starvation, heat, etc) then you'd start losing HP, this FP would only insulate against HP loss to sleep loss
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Old 11-25-2020, 11:50 PM   #49
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
From what I've read, the amount of sleep one needs is genetic. Only the amount one can handle the deleterious effects of insufficient sleep can be trained.
But also, I believe I read something semi-recently that despite the beliefs to the contrary, one can stock up a hint of "sleep reserve" for later use.

A few genes connected with lowered sleep requirements have been found. They've even been shown to have the same effect when transferred to non-humans.
Sound right to me I've relying on putting "sleep in the sleep bank" my entire life if I got heavy days (or nights) coming up

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I think more would be at play than genes, like your activity levels, if you're sick, how well you're eating...

Converting a physical advantage into a mental one can be done by adding a modifier which introduces a mental attribute roll though: Less Sleep (Requires Will Roll) for example is now mental so if you left your body you'd take it with you (someone possessing your body can't use it) and bring it to whatever new body you inhabit.



FP+5 (only for Sleeping -80%) [3] at best, perhaps?

You wouldn't be able to spent it on Extra Effort and if your normal FP was brought to 0 by stuff other than sleep (starvation, heat, etc) then you'd start losing HP, this FP would only insulate against HP loss to sleep loss
That would nicely cover someone able to do it to a greater than usual degree.

If I was going to include this level of sleep detail I might allow anyone the ability to amass and "bank" +20% FP (with the caveats for use you outline) for free. I might make not being to do it a 1 pt quirk
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