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Old 04-22-2018, 08:19 AM   #31
JazzJedi
 
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
From personal experience, it vastly increases the chances for Anxiety attacks. So it should likely worsen resistible disadvantages.

I've never had euphoria but my GF did when working some graveyard shifts. Enough that she was often "randomly" selected for drug tests.
Quite right! I just use the mechanical effects of Euphoria, but describe it as sleepiness, anxiety, lack of motivation, slow reflexes, etc.

I think I will make the conditions: HTx2 hours without sleep is drowsy, HTx4 hours without sleep is Euphoria and lose a level of Fitness, and HTx10 hours is Hallucinating and lose two levels of Fitness.
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Old 04-22-2018, 08:27 AM   #32
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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A lot of the rules in the basic set break badly at even human levels according to basic set. That is things like how long or how fast you can run, how much you can lift and so on. The rules work fairly well when you are about 10 in attributes, skills slightly above 10 and do not try anything too extreme.

If you go over those things a lot of the things break.
I'm not sure ...

As far as I compare rules with what I, friends of mine or champions can do, I find that GURPS rules work quite well. As soon as you don't give the characters outstanding attributes - in which case, of course, they become able to do outstanding feats!

The problem is often here. Some people complains that GURPS is unrealistic, but chooses heroic stats to prove it. They forget that GURPS can handle ordinary characters as well as heroic or even super-heroic ones, with exactly the same rules. And, so, the frontier between that kinds of heroes is very thin.

Now, I do agree that, from time to time, a rule sound surprisingly harsh or heroic, even for a character supposed to be average. In that case, threads like that one are precisely made to discuss about it. And, most often, a good solution is given. Sometimes an optional rule is even published after that (The High-Tech hiking rate, for instance).

In any case, I really think that GURPS is the most realistic roleplaying game I have ever played. I'm not telling that it is always perfectly realistic. It's just a game, not a scientific reality simulator. But it remains outstandingly realistic.

Which is why we sometimes complain about some rules. Nobody would complain about D&D realism! "What? My character can take 20 arrows in the chest and still be fighting without the least penalty?"
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Old 04-22-2018, 08:30 AM   #33
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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Quite right! I just use the mechanical effects of Euphoria, but describe it as sleepiness, anxiety, lack of motivation, slow reflexes, etc.

I think I will make the conditions: HTx2 hours without sleep is drowsy, HTx4 hours without sleep is Euphoria and lose a level of Fitness, and HTx10 hours is Hallucinating and lose two levels of Fitness.
It sounds to be a good house rule which would deserve to be published somewhere ... In a fan website, for instance.
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Old 04-22-2018, 09:26 AM   #34
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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It sounds to be a good house rule which would deserve to be published somewhere ... In a fan website, for instance.
I revised them and I did. Here is the link. Tell me what you think!
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Old 04-22-2018, 09:56 AM   #35
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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I revised them and I did. Here is the link. Tell me what you think!
It sounds very simple to use. And fun too! I added your website to my bookmarks.
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Old 04-22-2018, 10:02 AM   #36
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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I'm not sure ...

The problem is often here. Some people complains that GURPS is unrealistic, but chooses heroic stats to prove it.
That is exactly what I am saying.. :)

If your attributes are close to 10(say 8-12) and skills not much higher(up to about 15) they work fine most of the time.

But as soon as you go to Exceptional attributes(13-14) the thing starts to feel strange and at low end of Amazing attributes(15-16) the breakage is certain and yet according to characters a attribute 20 is still human normal, just very rare!
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Old 04-22-2018, 10:23 AM   #37
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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That is exactly what I am saying.. :)

If your attributes are close to 10(say 8-12) and skills not much higher(up to about 15) they work fine most of the time.

But as soon as you go to Exceptional attributes(13-14) the thing starts to feel strange and at low end of Amazing attributes(15-16) the breakage is certain and yet according to characters a attribute 20 is still human normal, just very rare!
OK. But, then, that's normal ... and inevitable!

GURPS is a game in which you can create yourself in our real world, as well as Lara Croft, Walter O'Brien (from the Scorpion TV series), Batman or even Superman. Exactly with the same attributes and rules.

So, if you give a real human, let's say Einstein, the intelligence of Walter O'Brien (18 to 20), it is inevitable that he will be able to do what Walter O'Brien can do, that is knowing everything about everything without having to spend time to learn it (every mental skill at a professional level or better, by default).

Ditto, if you give a realistic character the DX level of Lara Croft, she will inevitably be able to do what Lara Croft can do: dodge about any blow, use any weapon, drive or pilot any vehicle ...

That's not a problem of rules. That's a problem GM choice.

Giving someone ST 20 on the pretext that it is very rare but should exist is exactly as using a cinematic rule on the pretext that some people did once something extraordinary.

It cannot have any other result that extraordinary (and unrealistic) feats.
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Old 04-22-2018, 10:58 AM   #38
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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Giving someone ST 20 on the pretext that it is very rare but should exist is exactly as using a cinematic rule on the pretext that some people did once something extraordinary.
But the rules disagree with you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by B15
The exception is ST, which can range
significantly beyond 20 even for nor-
mal humans.
Note the "normal humans" in the above, not exceptional humans or cinematic humans.

In the same paragraph on B15 it says that you normally have attributes 1-20 and only need GM permission for attributes above 20.. so anything up to 20 is presumably normally available if you have the points to buy it by RAW even in a realistic campaign as there is no indication that the high values are cinematic. Only the note in the box that attributes of 15+ draw constant comment and probably guide career choices.
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Old 04-22-2018, 11:16 AM   #39
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

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But the rules disagree with you:

[...]

Note the "normal humans" in the above, not exceptional humans or cinematic humans.

In the same paragraph on B15 it says that you normally have attributes 1-20 and only need GM permission for attributes above 20.. so anything up to 20 is presumably normally available if you have the points to buy it by RAW even in a realistic campaign as there is no indication that the high values are cinematic. Only the note in the box that attributes of 15+ draw constant comment and probably guide career choices.
OK. But that is another discussion that has already been done in another thread, very extensively. The best think to do is to read it again (or to resurrect it if we have new arguments to bring).
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Old 04-22-2018, 12:56 PM   #40
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Default Re: Got a problem with Missed Sleep rule

Missed sleep falls into the overarching problem of Fatigue being used to emulate far too many things in Gurps.
Starvation, dehydration, burst energy, moderate energy, one day can't maintain extreme energy, sleep, electrical attacks, stunning, etc.
I understand why it's done, but trying to make any one of them realistic would likely require rebuilding each set of rules from the ground up.
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