[DF] Beyond the Dungeon

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anthony

It can sustain dungeon delving on a time scale of decades, which is plenty for a DF campaign; it's just tough to sustain on a time scale of centuries.

I think the work needed to sustain it with all the tropes at TL4-ish and a high degree of plausibility would be pretty intense; to the extent that for me it would actively detract from the fun that "a wizard did it"-esque fiat-based lampshades can provide, YMMV.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I think the work needed to sustain it with all the tropes at TL4-ish and a high degree of plausibility would be pretty intense.

Well, some of the tropes are problematic for reasons totally unrelated to dungeons, in that the trappings of medieval life and warfare may not make a lot of sense when they have to deal with monsters and magic (this depends somewhat on the details of the monsters and magic), but realistically, there have been a lot of 'adventurers' throughout history whose concept of adventuring was to go out, find exotic cultures, and conquer and/or steal from them; just replace the exotic human cultures with monsters (possibly monsters who previously destroyed a human culture, as a source of loot) and you've got the basics of hack and slay fantasy; make the monsters burrowing magpie-like creatures and you've got dungeons. There are other things you need to do, but my point was mostly that the slay and loot play style actually has plenty of precedent, it just mostly targeted humans in the real world.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anthony

There are other things you need to do, but my point was mostly that the slay and loot play style actually has plenty of precedent, it just mostly targeted humans in the real world.

Sure, but Cortez-as-murder-hobo is definitely getting seriously into deconstruction, which again isn't necessarily a bad premise for a game, it just isn't killing owlbears and taking their stuff anymore. I also think that had Dungeon Fantasy taken this kind of high concept approach to the material it probably wouldn't have been as popular. Certainly the majority of games in this this genre aren't especially sophisticated in this regard.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Sure, but Cortez-as-murder-hobo is definitely getting seriously into deconstruction.

It's only deconstruction if you lampshade that that's what you're doing. The standard for DF is that you aren't examining the ethics of what you're doing, and it's perfectly possible to continue doing so, or to design the monsters so it's not as ethically dubious as real-world equivalents.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anthony

It's only deconstruction if you lampshade that that's what you're doing. The standard for DF is that you aren't examining the ethics of what you're doing, and it's perfectly possible to continue doing so, or to design the monsters so it's not as ethically dubious as real-world equivalents.

In that case when does it matter that the PCs are Cortez?

[Yafnag]

Originally Posted by dripton

The biggest gap I see remaining is city adventures. DF currently abstracts Town as The Place Where You Buy And Sell Stuff And Get Healed, which is fine for some games. But I can definitely see room for City Adventures book. And maybe also some expanded Town rules for people who don't plan to actually adventure there, but who enjoy a more detailed home base.

I agree. Something like Wilderness Adventures, "urban adventures" with reaction time for guards, something like the GTA Stars Wanted Level for criminal characters, different district, like merchant or noble houses, with special building to use (not only taverns but, gambling house, slave pen, thermal baths, and so on...).

[A Ladder]

Originally Posted by Yafnag

I agree. Something like Wilderness Adventures, "urban adventures" with reaction time for guards, something like the GTA Stars Wanted Level for criminal characters, different district, like merchant or noble houses, with special building to use (not only taverns but, gambling house, slave pen, thermal baths, and so on...).

You do realize there is a supplement called Guilds right? Might be up your alley.

As for "Urban Adventures" just use the wandering monster rules from Dungeons 2, p. 20 for when a thug or something shows up
3 or less in "rich/safe" parts of town
6 or less in "normal" parts of town
9 or less in "bad" parts of town. etc.

with up to +/-3 for attracting the "wrong" kind of attention. IE flashing bags of gold and wearing rich garb in a slum would be a +3.

How fast does it takes the watch to show up?
Roll a Sense Roll for the Watch modified by the hearing rules on B358, give them a distance based on how well/bad they did. Calculate response time by Move vs distance. They get a bonus to hear things based on the "safe" (+3?) vs "bad"(-3) parts of town. Use some math before hand and figure out an average response time. Boom.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Yafnag

I agree. Something like Wilderness Adventures, "urban adventures" with reaction time for guards, something like the GTA Stars Wanted Level for criminal characters, different district, like merchant or noble houses, with special building to use (not only taverns but, gambling house, slave pen, thermal baths, and so on...).

I think I'd like to see some kind of 'Cultural/Species Romance' (Analagous to the Planetary Romance found in SciFi) support that would help standardize our views of existing but less monsters.

I know that explorations of this depth and type are generally out of line with the lighthearted (not NECESSARILY 'clown nosed silly') action/adventure tone of DF but I think that the exploration of those can make for good stories (especially when used as an avatar for other issues).

Im not suggesting that we use Orcs or Goblins for this sort of thing as I think we all have our own flavors of these common foes. Im also not suggesting that we use PC races, as their cultures, customs, history and future are kind of OURS to fill in with the run of play.

A few examples...

A mindwarper has an IQ of 18 so likely has SOMETHING interesting to say/think. Why are they always alone? Where did they come from? Why are they always quarreling amongst themselves? Whats at stake in that struggle?


Who the heck built the Bronze Spiders?!?!?! Are they an interconneced communicating network or are they completely autonomous?

Watcher at the end of time. Howd they get that job?

Its arguable that you could flesh these out (less completely) in adventures as well as 'sourcebooks' but I think it might be neat to see.


Nymdok

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Gnome

I like the DF label because "fantasy" tells you there's magic, whereas "DF" tells you there's magic, it's pseudo-medieval, and the PCs are a Fighter, a Cleric, a Wizard, etc. who will go on dangerous adventures and face powerful, sometimes magical foes. And I don't think we need a guardian at the gates of GURPS to keep DF in its cage.

Also that label is just suitable and IMHO better than saying "DnD-like" around here, at least since the existence of the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy line onwards.

Originally Posted by Nymdok

Its arguable that you could flesh these out (less completely) in adventures as well as 'sourcebooks' but I think it might be neat to see.

I agree that it can be interesting to answer to points like the ones you're mentioning.

Although for one I think most of these things are better fleshed-out in particular campaigns, and the aforementioned label shouldn't discourage from doing it.

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

No edition of Dungeons and Dragons is a generic system (even 3.n's "d20" system was significantly different in different genres, to the extent that no books were shared in common).

Yes however, classic D&D take on fantasy has become the default standard. And since D&D represent Gygax's and Arneson's mashup of what they liked in the 70s it a mix of a little bit of a lot of stuff.

So D&D is generic in terms of fantasy. And with the d20 SRD and now the 5e SRD under the Open Game License this is being demonstrated in fact that there is now a board family of RPGs all recognizably D&D but very different in tone and what subgenre they focus on.

You got gonzo (Dungeon Crawl Classics), weird fantasy based on the 16th and 17th century (Lamentation of the Flame Princess), African mythology (Spears at Dawn), semi-historical (Dark Albion), Political/Culture conflict(my Majestic Wilderlands, ACKS), etc, etc.

Yet you can still see the same bog-standard fantasy elements pioneered by OD&D + Supplements and AD&D 1st through all of them.

And also to be clear it perfectly fine if you find the whole think silly and are unable to take it seriously. But realize some are able to take it seriously and for good reason. At this level it is a matter of personal taste and while we can talk generalizations, it is useless to try to extrapolate from that down to individual gamers. The only thing that consistently works is to talk to your players and learn what they are interested in. Then plan accordingly.