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Old 12-16-2015, 05:17 AM   #11
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Default Re: Movement and Combat on the Astral Plane

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Originally Posted by mr beer View Post
I like these rules but I would use Will as ST instead of flat IQ.
That would dramatically conflate the Astral Plane with the plane of Limbo. The Astral Plane is the domain of reason and intellect, where intelligence makes characters fast and strong. It's the plane of Limbo that responds to willpower and the strong-willed and imaginative can create anything out of the yielding protomatter of that plane.
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Old 12-16-2015, 06:01 AM   #12
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Default Re: Movement and Combat on the Astral Plane

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I've been thinking along these same lines, myself, and I really like your approach so much, I'm gonna steal it. However, rather than make HT = HT, I'd go with Fat = HT. How well one resists and recovers depends on how tired one is, and Fat is as much mental, as anything. :)
Both Fat and Fit are exclusively tied to a specific physical body. HT, however, has at least some mental component of grit and willpower.

I'm retaining HT for knockdown, consciousness and death checks, but for skill purposes, I'll have Will take the place of HT.

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I'd go with this because increases in Basic Move strike me as physical training, more than anything. Besides, with the new Astral Move, combined with the ability to take 3x that as a full move action, and I don't think the PCs would gripe, much.
Surely not.

I'm revising the calculation of Astral Basic Speed, however. Instead of (IQ+Per+Will+HT)/8, I'm going to use ((2xIQ)+(2xPer)+Will)/8. This will result in really high Basic Speed for sapient characters, which is deliberate, as it's meant to reinforce that people move at the speed of thought on the astral plane.

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However, I would require the 3x move to take extra effort, and charge a Fatigue for each instance. That means it works for short-term tactical scenarios, but not for long-duration travel, and the players must judge carefully how best to use it.

Use it too much, and one gets too tired, and resistances drop.
I find that not being able to act while moving faster is enough of a limitation. And the Astral Plane is infinite, so it's not as if there is any major benefit to being able to cover a lot of ground. Getting from one place to another there is not a matter of velocity.

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I'd say, yes. Magic always works in an inherently magical situation, and robbing that from the players doesn't seem fair.
Fair enough.

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I like the Astrobatics skill concept, plus khorboth's notion that new travelers to the Astral Plane suffer from a -2 to all actions, until they acclimate themselves (as demonstrated through the purchase of a Perk, after they've had enough practice).
I'm really torn on this issue. On one hand, I don't want githyanki to learn exactly the same combat skills as those who train in gravity. They should have to train specifically for astral conditions. And it seems to me that a lot of their training would be applicable for astronaut knife-fights during Extravehicular Activity.

On the other hand, capping combat skills at unmodified Body Sense or Free Fall has the effect of making everyone who doesn't live and train on the Astral Plane equally terrible at fighting there. The group's best warrior, Sir Michael, who has most combat skills at DX+5 to DX+10, will be no better and no worse at hand-to-hand combat than fire elementalist/sorcerer Abadas, who has Judo at DX and Knife at DX+2.

On possibiliby is to allow characters to anchor themselves mentally and fight at -2 (or no penalty with a Perk) or to move around freely, but then they fight with skills capped at their default Body Sense or Free Fall skills (with a bonus +1 for every 3 points of IQ).

I also think Free Fall ought to default to Acrobatics and certainly to Astral Movement. Say that Astral Movement defaults to Acrobatics-4, Aerobatics-3 and Aquabatics-5 and that Free Fall defaults to Acrobatics-5, Aerobatics-4, Aquabatics-5 and Astral Movement-3.

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I'll have to agree with khorboth, again, here. I don't think you "float" in Astral Space, nor would I say the concept of "momentum" exists, as such. One moves to the position one wills, and then one stays put until such time as one chooses to move again.
But you do float and the concept of momentum exists. When you throw an axe or a keg full of giff powder, you experience equal and opposite reaction and start moving in the direaction away from your throw. It's just that you can countaract your momentum mentally and if you are good enough at Astral Movement, seem not to move at all.

Creatures unintelligent enough not to understand that they can move around by mind-power behave exactly like they would in free fall, however. So do stunned characters or inanimate objects.

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As for combat, I'd add that almost everything must take place at close range. Most astral travelers manifest as an avatar based on how they perceive themselves, but with no real useful equipment. A Stasis Box (G: Cabal, p.110) does allow the user to carry a projection of one piece of equipment, per box, but ranged weapons aren't that useful.

I'd say they work with full damage out to two hexes, half-damage at three, and zero damage at four hexes. In contrast, I'd say spell damage works with no such penalties, so a guy with a stasis-box shotgun is badly outgunned by a sorceror with ranged spells -- or even one who has a stasis-boxed six-foot staff with a three-hex flame-jet shooting from the end of it.
On this Astral Plane, travellers appear carrying astral copies of everything they are wearing or carrying.

Ranged weapons have a familiarity penalty for those used to gravity having an effect on thrown weapons or arrows, but otherwise work fine. In fact, the lack of gravity or normal drag means that most short-ranged weapons are useful up to a longer range, once the user has adjusted to the lack of drag or gravity.

Unfortunately, two factors combine to make long-range missiles impractical. The first is mental drag, which eventually stops any inanimate object that has no mental force behind it. Typical arrows and spears will be stopped within a few hundred yards. As a rule of thumb, figure that muscle-powered ranged weapons ranges are doubled, but that there is a hard cap for how far each projectile can go. In good news, though, Zen Archery checks are made at +10 on the Astral Plane.

The second is that although the Silver Void seems infinite and large objects, like the floating islands composed of the corpses of dead gods, can be seen from a very long way off, practical visibility for human-sized targets is actually only around 200 yards. It's like a mental horizon, objects further off, unless exceptionally big, mystical or important (or all three) are simply invisible. When they get within 200 yards, they suddenly appear, clearly visible in the empty void.

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I'd also say hand-to-hand training works with no penalty (beyond the initial -2 for n00bs), but is based on IQ and Per, as you noted. The best fighters train so much they act reflexively, with a superb integration of mind and body. If anything, training to that scale would almost work better, because the fighter doesn't have to deal with physical limitations.

In the really-real world, Bruce Lee was unbelievably good. In the Astral Plane, where his training would be unconstrained by the limitations of his (albeit superb) physique, he'd be unimaginable.
On the other hand, the best human fighters train in an environment with gravity and rely on the ground for leverage and footwork. Put them in a featureless silver void, in what amounts to freefall, even if they can use their mind to move around, and suddenly most of what they've learnt no longer applies.
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Old 12-16-2015, 09:53 AM   #13
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Default Re: Movement and Combat on the Astral Plane

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I like Shadowrun's Astral Plane better =)
I never did play Shadowrun.
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Old 12-16-2015, 10:06 PM   #14
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Default Re: Movement and Combat on the Astral Plane

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Both Fat and Fit are exclusively tied to a specific physical body. HT, however, has at least some mental component of grit and willpower.
....
I think he means Fatigue rather than actual fat-energy. Of course I may be misunderstanding your understanding.
I think Fatigue has enough mental components to allow it having some use in an Astral Plane.
Gurps IQ is so expansive that it tends to hug tightly to species average. So I would prefer to have numerous sub-attributes see the limelight if only to allow PC/NPC variability.
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Old 12-16-2015, 10:10 PM   #15
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Default Re: Movement and Combat on the Astral Plane

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I never did play Shadowrun.
I'm so shocked that my monocle just fell out. ;)
For some reason, I have a hard time imagining you playing Shadowrun.

Most of the game's Astral Plane was "just" a way to travel rapidly, invisibliy, and through un-living objects. Only later added Outer Planes dealt with what most of us think of when thinking of Astral Planes.
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Old 12-16-2015, 10:27 PM   #16
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Default Re: Movement and Combat on the Astral Plane

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I think he means Fatigue rather than actual fat-energy. Of course I may be misunderstanding your understanding.
I think Fatigue has enough mental components to allow it having some use in an Astral Plane.
Gurps IQ is so expansive that it tends to hug tightly to species average. So I would prefer to have numerous sub-attributes see the limelight if only to allow PC/NPC variability.
Yeah, Fatigue, not Fat or Obese or Skinny.

Sorry about that.
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:11 PM   #17
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Default Re: Movement and Combat on the Astral Plane

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Both Fat and Fit are exclusively tied to a specific physical body. HT, however, has at least some mental component of grit and willpower.
Whoops! Sorry. It's Fatigue. I should have been more clear.

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I'm retaining HT for knockdown, consciousness and death checks, but for skill purposes, I'll have Will take the place of HT.
Mmf. I can see the argument. I just think that, on a purely intellectual Plane, mental toughness matters, but physical toughness does not. After all, the body is (effectively) in a coma in material reality; it's the mind/spirit that's wandering.

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Surely not.

I'm revising the calculation of Astral Basic Speed, however. Instead of (IQ+Per+Will+HT)/8, I'm going to use ((2xIQ)+(2xPer)+Will)/8. This will result in really high Basic Speed for sapient characters, which is deliberate, as it's meant to reinforce that people move at the speed of thought on the astral plane.
I like this even better. Nicely done, sir.

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I find that not being able to act while moving faster is enough of a limitation. And the Astral Plane is infinite, so it's not as if there is any major benefit to being able to cover a lot of ground. Getting from one place to another there is not a matter of velocity.

(SNIP)
Interesting. Do you plan to use some sort of mechanic by which astral beings cover long "distances," there? Or is it a matter of familiarity, or something, in which if one knows a location well, one can simply think one's self, there? Speed of astral "Move" is thus only tactical?

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I'm really torn on this issue. On one hand, I don't want githyanki to learn exactly the same combat skills as those who train in gravity. They should have to train specifically for astral conditions. And it seems to me that a lot of their training would be applicable for astronaut knife-fights during Extravehicular Activity.

On the other hand, capping combat skills at unmodified Body Sense or Free Fall has the effect of making everyone who doesn't live and train on the Astral Plane equally terrible at fighting there. The group's best warrior, Sir Michael, who has most combat skills at DX+5 to DX+10, will be no better and no worse at hand-to-hand combat than fire elementalist/sorcerer Abadas, who has Judo at DX and Knife at DX+2.
Well, hold on. See, I'd let them use the same points in the skills, it's just that the base attribute differs. So, your Sir Michael has combat skills at IQ+5 to IQ+10, whereas your Abadas would have Judo at IQ and Knife at IQ+2 (assuming he had a knife).

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One possibility is to allow characters to anchor themselves mentally and fight at -2 (or no penalty with a Perk) or to move around freely, but then they fight with skills capped at their default Body Sense or Free Fall skills (with a bonus +1 for every 3 points of IQ).
Now, this is what I thought you meant, and it's the way I'd go with it. In the example, above, I'd have your Sir Michael take the -2 on all of his IQ+5 or IQ+10 combat skills, until he'd spent enough time fighting or training (or both) in the Astral Plane to qualify for the one-point perk that removes the penalty.

So, he's still quite the formidable guy, it's just that he's not acclimated to the conditions in the combat zone and has to think about things in a way he's not yet accustomed.

Once he becomes so accustomed, the combat starts to look like something choreographed by Yuen Woo-ping.

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I also think Free Fall ought to default to Acrobatics and certainly to Astral Movement. Say that Astral Movement defaults to Acrobatics-4, Aerobatics-3 and Aquabatics-5 and that Free Fall defaults to Acrobatics-5, Aerobatics-4, Aquabatics-5 and Astral Movement-3.


But you do float and the concept of momentum exists. When you throw an axe or a keg full of giff powder, you experience equal and opposite reaction and start moving in the direaction away from your throw. It's just that you can countaract your momentum mentally and if you are good enough at Astral Movement, seem not to move at all.

Creatures unintelligent enough not to understand that they can move around by mind-power behave exactly like they would in free fall, however. So do stunned characters or inanimate objects.
Ah, okay. You're using the D&D version of the Astral Plane. Sorry, you were clear about that, in the first post, when you said, "Forgotten Realms."

That setting, does, indeed, treat movement in its Astral Plane as if it followed Newton's Laws of Motion. Having just seen Gravity, again, I can't really go with that model. Momentum really isn't a thing, when you move where you will and stop when you like, so I'll go with a different approach.

I'll go with the vast silver-gray void with no gravity for the deep places in Yetzirah, but locations in the outer reaches reflect material reality "close" to them. So, the genius locus of Denver, for instance, inhabits an Astral realm that looks like an idealized projection of Denver, with some anachronisms caused by echoes of particularly significant events, in the past.

Anyone who travels, there, will recognize the place instantly, and it will feel quite like Denver should feel. It's only after walking around, for a bit, that the visitor will notice some things that are "off" (less grime; no graffiti except in the alleys off 13th Avenue, which reflect some of the amazingly cool things done, there, 20 years ago; some of the older parts of town -- for instance, Five Points -- look like they used to in their hey-day, rather than they do, now).

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On this Astral Plane, travellers appear carrying astral copies of everything they are wearing or carrying.

(SNIP)
For my campaign, I'm gonna go with Ken Hite's restrictions found in G: Cabal. People appear in a form that reflects their perception of themselves, but only really powerful magical items have "shadows" and can function, there. However, magic spells always work, as does training in skilled HTH combat.
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:07 AM   #18
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Default Re: Movement and Combat on the Astral Plane

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I'm so shocked that my monocle just fell out. ;)
For some reason, I have a hard time imagining you playing Shadowrun.

Most of the game's Astral Plane was "just" a way to travel rapidly, invisibliy, and through un-living objects. Only later added Outer Planes dealt with what most of us think of when thinking of Astral Planes.
I've played cyberpunk with GURPS, just not Shadowrun. Wasn't that the one with dwarves and elves and orcs and trolls and dragons in a cyberpunk setting?
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:31 AM   #19
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Default Re: Movement and Combat on the Astral Plane

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I think he means Fatigue rather than actual fat-energy. Of course I may be misunderstanding your understanding.
I think Fatigue has enough mental components to allow it having some use in an Astral Plane.
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Yeah, Fatigue, not Fat or Obese or Skinny.

Sorry about that.
Right!

Well, I hadn't mentioned how I'd calculate FP, but if pressed, I'd figure them as equal to IQ (since IQ=ST on the astral and I've already made Will = HP). If a character has raised or lowered FP, I suppose those could be retained, calculated from the new base.

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Gurps IQ is so expansive that it tends to hug tightly to species average. So I would prefer to have numerous sub-attributes see the limelight if only to allow PC/NPC variability.
Well, IQ as ST and the basis of movement, Per as DX and Will as the skill portion of HT as well as HP already allows for fair variaton. And since improvements to Basic Speed are retained with the new score, that gives even more variation.

Only two PCs have IQ, Per and Will all at the same level anyway. Those are Rasul Khamsin Mubtasim, who has IQ, Per and Will at 16, and Abadas Hussein, who has IQ, Per and Will 15. Most of the others have a fair bit of variation already. Sir Michael, for example, has IQ 12 and Per and Will 14, which goes up to Per and Will 18 when he's wearing the Amulet of Wisdom he was given by priests of Deneir. Ankhapet has IQ 16, Per 17 and Will 16. Murlak has IQ 15, Per 16 and Will 14. And Nelior Bladeburner has IQ 15, Will 16 and Per 17, at least while his imp familiar is nearby.

It's true that most of them will have similar Basic Speed (9.75-11), but then, their Basic Speed is similar on the Prime Material too. Rasul has spent 15 points on BS, Abadas 20 points, Murlak 30 points, Ankhapet and Mickey 5 points.

Abadas Basic Speed 10.00 -- Full Move 40
Ankhapet Basic Speed 10.50 -- Full Move 42
Mickey Basic Speed 9.75 -- Full Move 33
Murlak Basic Speed 11.00 -- Full Move 41
Nelior Basic Speed 10.00 -- Full Move 40
Rasul Basic Speed 10.75 -- Full Move 42
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Old 12-17-2015, 07:48 AM   #20
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Default Re: Movement and Combat on the Astral Plane

Combat on the Astral Plane is probably different enough to require its own skill, or at least a technique, not just a measly perk. I'd also probably phrase the difficulty as a bonus to dodge/defense: hitting things that don't think in the astral is probably exceptionally easy. +2 feels about right. Astral combat styles ignore that +2 and get that +2 to their parries/blocks.

defaulting from one skill to the other is at -2, but you have to have a teacher really sit down and show you how the other one works: you can't just show up and figure it out by yourself in an hour. So until they find (and pay?) a teacher, the travelers have to deal with a huge advantage by everyone else.

At least,that's how I would do it.
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