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Old 01-06-2020, 11:37 AM   #11
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
For the most part in GURPS, grenade timing is handwaved to a "it explodes immediately after being thrown/fired", because in real life most people do not act as fast or as precisely as GURPS Characters do.
This isn't true at all. GURPS grenades with time fuses (most of them) go off in accordance with those time fuses from when the grenade is armed.
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Old 01-06-2020, 01:29 PM   #12
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Did he include the part where the fuse had to be ignited by banging one end of the grenade on a hard surface? Or that sometimes the only hard surface available was the user's helmet?
That's not specifically mentioned in the entry, but it does deserve a place on the long list of "good" design ideas.

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
The classic British Number 36M grenade was issued unfused. The fuses came in two varieties, 4 seconds and 7 seconds, and it was necessary to fuse the grenade before they were usable.
I think everyone ships grenades unfused - fusing grenades is a pretty standard part of prepping for an operation.

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
They're extremely useful if you can sneak up on a fortified position unnoticed. Posting one into a pillbox opening works just fine: the fortification works in both directions.
They're also fun at night, where you can toss one almost silently at an enemy patrol - no muzzle flash or anything, just an explosion somewhere near them. If they are jumpy enough you can provoke jitter fire that way and sometimes they will shoot at each other for some time before someone gets a grip on them. Ideally you toss another grenade towards anyone shouting "cease fire".
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Old 01-06-2020, 02:57 PM   #13
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by GWJ View Post
So what, grenades with 2-3 sec fuses are flying faster than grenades with 4-5 fuses?
No. Generally it's handwaved because, as I said, people in real life die to grenades, but no GURPS Character will die to a grenade when they have 2-4 seconds to move out of the blast zone before it goes off.

Unless their foe properly cooked it off, in which case that was 2-4 seconds in which their foe sat around not firing at them, just holding a live grenade counting off the seconds.

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I throw grenade. The grenade lands at somewhere near my foe (1st question - it will sit on the ground or bounce and land farther?). How much time my foe has to react somehow, before the grenade explode?
If you do like most GMs and handwave it, the foe might get a Dive for Cover Dodge. If not he has a leisurely 2-4 seconds to walk away before it explodes.

It depends on the fuse length.

Quote:
And like this: I throw grenade with 2-3 sec fuse on some great range. How to check if the grenade will reach his destination or just explode in the air?
It won't. It never takes more than 1 second for thrown or fired weapons to reach their targets, baring some optional rules for extreme long-range weapons.



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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
This isn't true at all. GURPS grenades with time fuses (most of them) go off in accordance with those time fuses from when the grenade is armed.
Yeah, that's RAW. But as I noted, by RAW GURPS Character have way more acuity and reaction time in combat than real life, so most GMs handwave the timing. If you don't, I'm surprised that any character suffers from a grenade blast.
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Old 01-06-2020, 05:00 PM   #14
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Unless their foe properly cooked it off, in which case that was 2-4 seconds in which their foe sat around not firing at them, just holding a live grenade counting off the seconds.
Which isn't actually a lot of time, even in a firefight...

It's a lot of time if you're having a mutual massacre in the open at hand-to-hand distances. But that's a weird situation for combat even if games often seem to present it...
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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Yeah, that's RAW. But as I noted, by RAW GURPS Character have way more acuity and reaction time in combat than real life, so most GMs handwave the timing. If you don't, I'm surprised that any character suffers from a grenade blast.
Your detailed knowledge of the behavior of a majority of all people who have ever run a GURPS game on this planet is startling.
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Old 01-06-2020, 06:07 PM   #15
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Which isn't actually a lot of time, even in a firefight...
It's incredible amounts of time. Unless you're enforcing Lulls and Perception/Tactics rolls for OODA looping. Then yeah, 5 seconds can go by very fast.

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Your detailed knowledge...
Alright, it's the games I've been in and run. But if this is not the standard, I'd like to hear how other GMs kept PCs from just walking away from grenades (or deal with anyone they suspected were cooking one off).
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Old 01-06-2020, 06:18 PM   #16
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
No. Generally it's handwaved because, as I said, people in real life die to grenades, but no GURPS Character will die to a grenade when they have 2-4 seconds to move out of the blast zone before it goes off.
In real life people either don't notice the grenade in all the noise and excitement (possibly to replicate in GURPS with strict use of Perception checks, etc.), or can't move far enough because of obstacles and/or enemy fire (also easily replicable in GURPS).
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Old 01-06-2020, 08:49 PM   #17
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
It's incredible amounts of time. Unless you're enforcing Lulls and Perception/Tactics rolls for OODA looping. Then yeah, 5 seconds can go by very fast.
It's time for 1-2 quick aimed shots, if you're not delayed by incoming fire. Or for a normal person to swap magazines. Maybe enough time for a bound to a new position.

4 seconds is 4 turns, but turns are short and most things you do take more than one of them.
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Old 01-07-2020, 04:30 AM   #18
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
It's incredible amounts of time. Unless you're enforcing Lulls and Perception/Tactics rolls for OODA looping. Then yeah, 5 seconds can go by very fast.


Alright, it's the games I've been in and run. But if this is not the standard, I'd like to hear how other GMs kept PCs from just walking away from grenades (or deal with anyone they suspected were cooking one off).

I run the fuse time, yes sometimes some will react by moving away from the grenade, or by getting some cover between them and the grenade. but a few points:

1). you have to know the grenade is coming and where it landed, in the middle of a loud chaotic fire fight that is not easy let alone automatic

2). Doing so might put you in a worse situation, e.g if I chuck a grenade through the window of the house you are in and my mate is sitting with a wait covering the door with his assault rifle.

3). Just getting you to re-position or get out the way might be a win for me anyway! (it stops you from shooting at me for instance)


On PCs dealing with someone cooking a grenade off,

1). they have to know that it's happening (see 1. above)

2). you can ready and cook a grenade while you are out of sight or behind cover out of the PC's LOS, and then briefly appear long enough to throw the thing at them. I.e you don't run out in front of the PC and then spend 2-3 turns readying the grenade, starting the fuse and cooking the grenade in plain sight before throwing it at them



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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
In real life people either don't notice the grenade in all the noise and excitement (possibly to replicate in GURPS with strict use of Perception checks, etc.), or can't move far enough because of obstacles and/or enemy fire (also easily replicable in GURPS).
yep
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Old 01-07-2020, 05:26 AM   #19
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

there's a more general point that been tangentially raised here with the question about how hard is it to kill PC's with a timed grenade.

Not all conflicts, even conflicts involving deadly force have to end in someone dying (or being seriously injured) in order for someone to win, or get a positive outcome.
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Old 01-07-2020, 05:36 AM   #20
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
No. Generally it's handwaved because, as I said, people in real life die to grenades, but no GURPS Character will die to a grenade when they have 2-4 seconds to move out of the blast zone before it goes off.

...

Yeah, that's RAW. But as I noted, by RAW GURPS Character have way more acuity and reaction time in combat than real life, so most GMs handwave the timing. If you don't, I'm surprised that any character suffers from a grenade blast.
Probably true with two spherical Characters dueling each other on a featureless plane.

In actual play, when grenades were used in my games, both by and against PC, that mostly wasn't a concern because

--the target(s) didn't notice the grenade (or only some of them did), either due to battle confusion or because someone used stealth and rolled a grenade toward them from behind.

--the target(s) couldn't move out of the blast zone in time or without putting themselves in higher danger.
Eithee because it would take them out of cover, or in one game, when a player lobbed a grenade through an open vehicle window...

--the purpose of the grenades was to make the target(s) move

--several grenade were thrown, covering a large area

And the few seconds delay, in cinematic games, may also allow fancy moves like a brute jumping on the grenade to protect the others players, or someone catching the grenade and throwing it back (and, in one memorable case, seeing it thrown back again ... )
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