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Old 08-14-2020, 05:20 PM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default does a Spirit having the Possession advantage give them a leg up in Embody contests?

T160
"If more than one spirit is present and wishes to occupy the body when the ritual is completed – and the GM decides that it’s suitable for any of them – then the one that wins a Quick Contest of Wills gets it."

It sounds like you don't need the Possession advantage to benefit from this (like the ritual effectively gives it to ANY spirit) but if you DID already have it, should you have a leg up in winning this Wills contest with a spirit who lacks it?

B75 normally uses IQ v Will so this seems to impart a Will v Will version of it...

Pg 28 of Pyramid 83 explores "Multiple Possessors" seems to represent this (via the Mental Control Points) system as a combination of increasing your own MCP on the target or reducing your rival's MCP on the target, an approach reminiscient of TG's rules for fighting over a weapon.

Pg 29 also has a different option where you can pseudo-possess a co-possessing entity but MCP going below 0 match-loss just eliminates control of the host without exorcising them.

I don't know how you'd adapt these rules to battling over an Embody vessel though, but it seems like those who inherently have Possession should (effectively having the advantage twice) be better at it than newbies.

Much akin to the "partial possession" of Channeling which is like endowing possession with "speech only" limits, if that were possible.
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Old 08-14-2020, 05:55 PM   #2
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: does a Spirit having the Possession advantage give them a leg up in Embody contes

Effectively, Embody allows spirits to gain Possession in exchange for losing Insubstantiality and Invisibility, so I do not think that already possesses Possession should necessarily help. Of course, a spirit with possession and Book/Path Magic could presumably possess someone and then use their body to perform Embody, so they could have a less ethically challenged form. Of course, living beings may be the target of Embody, so it may still be unethical.
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Old 08-16-2020, 01:33 AM   #3
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: does a Spirit having the Possession advantage give them a leg up in Embody contes

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Effectively, Embody allows spirits to gain Possession in exchange for losing Insubstantiality and Invisibility
One thing I was hoping for was rather than "net character point value of all gains and losses" needing an "apart from Insubstantiality and Invisibility" disclaimer, that somehow the exchange would total up to zero on it's own.

B62: 80
B63: 40
P75: 100

swapping 120 for 100 doesn't work out in baseline costs, but then I actually need to look deeper here...

"Its immaterial form “rides around” inside the body, and may be injured by attacks that affect immaterial beings"

That actually sounds like Insubstantiality who takes Possession with the Spiritual -20% limit. May as well take No Memory Access -10% too (body doesn't have memories)
You could probably also consider it to be Puppet Only (-30%, saves 30 points) where the Embody is the singular puppet (worth 5 points, B78) which also explains why no roll is needed to possess it: only to fight for it.
Possession (Spiritual/NMA/PO -60%) [40] + Puppet [5] is net cost of 45 points you gain?

So while you "effectively" lose Insubstantiality while possessing a material form (can't walk through walls) you don't actually lose it...

So maybe "you don't really lose your insubstantiality" is the reason you can't count it as a point loss?

The same might apply to invisibility too: something invisible possessing a visible being is "effectively" visible while moving that body (they aren't an invisible attacker unless they ditch the body) but in truth they would still TECHNICALLY have the invisibility advantage...

It might be similar to hiding in a wall: it's the wall that is visible, someone with See Invisible can't see you (the wall is cover) unless they also have Penetrating Vision. If you had both SI+PV then you could probably look into the body to see the spirit inside it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I do not think that already possesses Possession should necessarily help. Of course, a spirit with possession and Book/Path Magic could presumably possess someone and then use their body to perform Embody, so they could have a less ethically challenged form. Of course, living beings may be the target of Embody, so it may still be unethical.
One possibility: even if Possession didn't help you fight the body, you could say that the spirit is effectively losing their prexisting Possession advantage while in the body, when calculating the lost advantages for net change. They don't need it, since the spell itself gives a form of it.

Now I'm wondering (a more general thing, Embody or otherwise) what happens if you try to negate insubstantiality (as Afflictions can do, or the M150 spell Materialize can do) while they're using Possession (Spiritual) and lurking inside the body...

It feels like it could be messy and the closest thing I can think of would be how Ray exploded Griggy in Meet the Legends. I don't think Shrinking ever mentions this in GURPS, but B58's note for Growth seems to come close:
if maximum thrust damage for your current ST is greater than the wall or ceiling’s DR, you burst through it
But a shrunk guy expanding to full size (or normal guy growing to giant size) after being eaten isn't exactly the same thing as teleporting into a wall, since that's outsides vs insides as opposed to insides vs insides. Palmer's suit probably protected him against the counterforces holding Griggy's meat together, but a suit wouldn't help if you overlapped your coordinates internally.

Last edited by Plane; 08-16-2020 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 08-16-2020, 01:57 AM   #4
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: does a Spirit having the Possession advantage give them a leg up in Embody contes

Well, they explicitly lose Insubstantiality and Invisibility when they take advantage of Embody, so there is nothing to target (as for more general Possession, it would likely mean automatic and instant ejection, as the condition allowing the Possession is not longer being fulfilled). If you want a spirit bomb though, you could design an Innate Attack that only works on possessed targets.
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Old 08-16-2020, 12:45 PM   #5
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: does a Spirit having the Possession advantage give them a leg up in Embody contes

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Well, they explicitly lose Insubstantiality and Invisibility when they take advantage of Embody, so there is nothing to target (as for more general Possession, it would likely mean automatic and instant ejection, as the condition allowing the Possession is not longer being fulfilled). If you want a spirit bomb though, you could design an Innate Attack that only works on possessed targets.
It doesn't say they explicitly lose it, just that you "effectively" lose it and that you can't get points for taking them off.

Forbidding the buying-off of Insubstantiality makes sense, because it's required to continue using Possession (Spiritual -20%)

Forbidding the buying-off of invisibility is a little less clear. I think they forbid that because it would happen too often as a point-crock, and all you're really doing is making it possible for people with Penetrating Vision to see you inside your host without needing See Invisible, which is a pretty rare situation.

Forbidding buying it off could just mean it's "effectively" gone because the host is visible (you can't be an invis-stabber without leaving it) but you could still count as effectively visible to the combination of See Invisible + Penetrating Vision? I like that, it sounds like a good combination to detect people possessed by 'ride-hitchers'.

Conceptually the buying-off is probably wrong since the idea is to buy advantages representing what the host can do, not to actually alter the spirit.

In that sense, I don't know why you'd calculate ST/HP differences and stuff from the spirit at all, since they'd presumably have a separate HP pool from the body they're controlling as the "may be injured by" text implies.

There isn't really anything I can see in the rules which would prevent your usual spirits from taking Invisibility and Possession (Spiritual) as Alternative Abilities to save points, which is pretty convenient since invisibility isn't especially useful when you're possessing a visible host, EXCEPT when someone has Penetrating Vision so they can look inside your host.

Another possibility might be if size levels could possibly make insubstantial spirits using possession (spiritual) visible (though only to those with See Invisible if the spirit can also turn invisible) if they possess same/lower SM targets. IE a SM+10 spirit possessing a SM-10 bug (perhaps visible as an aura?) instead of a SM-10 spirit possessing a SM+10 giant (the larger body as cover).

This would create incentive to be able to use Possession + Invisible at the same time, rather than as Alternative Abilities.

You could have spirits take Shrinking (Only while using Possession -10%) to represent squishing their large insubstantial bodies into a small hosts to prevent being visible, and to use them as Cover against attacks that harm both substantial/insubstantial targets (insub only attacks presumably just pass through substantial barriers so they can't be used as cover?)
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