Rules you ignore/alter.

[benz72]

Originally Posted by Kesendeja

High Pain Threshold
3 CP per level, Maximum of four levels

• -1 Shock Penalty per level

Additionally each level past the first also grants the following:

• +1 HT to Resist Knockback and Stunning
• +1 to resist Physical Torture
• +1 Will to ignore pain in other situations at the GM's discretion

This has allowed for a bit more nuance in characters, and the total cost isn't that different, 12 instead of 10.

I'm a huge fan of this kind of factoring, though I would probably either change the cost of the first level to reflect the lack of additional effects or, more likely, just make each level the same for simplicity.

[Kesendeja]

Originally Posted by benz72

I'm a huge fan of this kind of factoring, though I would probably either change the cost of the first level to reflect the lack of additional effects or, more likely, just make each level the same for simplicity.

Would adding the additional effects to the first level over power the whole thing? I'm open to the idea, just don't know about the balance. Ideas are always welcome.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kesendeja

Would adding the additional effects to the first level over power the whole thing?

Nah, they're a minority of the value of the advantage anyway.

[kirbwarrior]

One small rule I use that I didn't know wasn't RAW is damage is combined for knockback. If you have a high RoF crushing attack, knockback isn't determined until all damage is known. Similarly, Teamwork perk lets multiple people work together and stack all the knockback together to move huge foes.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

What level of 'learn' versus 'automatically know' are we talking about here? There aren't really many things that one doesn't have to learn.

Experience with similar things. I'd relate a description in terms that the characters would understand to let the players guess what attributes are in play. Baseline is "different" with a description. If there's an enhancement to lessen the chance of them noticing the difference the description will reflect that. Likewise if it's obvious I'll describe it as armor of some variety.

Also, in some cases (including turtle shells to an extent) you can outright see the thickness of rigid armor slabs at their edges. Which is informative, if not perfectly so.

I'd say that's worth points.

The Hulk doesn't have obvious DR. He's big and looks like a monster but you can't tell if bullets will bounce off.

The Thing looks like a rock. Not all rocks bounce bullets, but you sure wouldn't try punching that surface.

I'd say the latter is worth a discount.

There are outward signs of strength that one can observe while the subject isn't currently performing feats of strength. Nearly all are relatively species specific and require informed interpretation, though.

Sure, though you do get people that are big but not as strong as that would suggest as well as small people that seem freakishly strong for their size.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

I think variable modifiers for obviousness of DR can make sense. Superman has DR with no signature, so crooks waste turns of combat emptying their guns at him (and then waste another turn of combat throwing the empty gun at him) rather than running, taking hostages, or doing anything else that would actually help. I have not read many comics, but I presume when facing an obviously armored opponent like the Thing, opponents are quicker to realize bullets don't work, and either attempt to escape or reach for the dynamite.

It makes sense, but I think it should be costed as a leveled quirk or advantage, costing no more than 10 or 20 points. Pricing it as Low or No Signature means that Superman's normal appearance costs hundreds or thousands of points for something that's only an advantage for the first couple of rounds of combat. The closest analogous advantage is Unusual Background, in that you have some ability that people aren't expecting.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Putting in that kind of huge text comes over as shouting, old boy. Mere italics are perfectly adequate for emphasis.

Sometimes the books actually contain italics, I figure the only way to make it clear I'm the one making the emphasis is to make it as gaudy as possible.

Originally Posted by naloth

I'd call that experience helping to form an opinion.
When you see someone grossly overweight do you think
a) wow, they must have the superhuman ST because they are super thick
or
b) they are grossly out of shape?
We need to learn what someone superbuff looks like.

I'm going to assume that if extra weight is due to fat and not muscle that I will be able to perceive that (and all the potential benefits to swimming which it will provide), because they will have one of the three disadvantages on B19 and that is why I am negatively reacting to them in a way I would not suffer reaction penalties to someone who just had high ST or high HP.

Taking a look at these, some things occurs to me though:
1) instead of a bonus to ST for actively resisting knockback, I think a bonus to HP for passively resisting knockback would make more sense
2) should there be a penalty for Shadowing someone in a crowd if the rest of the crowd is also Very Fat? Weirdly the normal person might actually 'stand out' in that situation, despite having a smaller profile. I think the Shadowing penalty just assumes it's a crowd of average people.
3) wouldn't high ST bodybuilders with low body fat also stand out in crowds of thin people?
4) why do thin people get a penalty to disguise? They have more space to apply facial prosthetics and can easily just thicken their limbs with padding to emulate average/fat people.

Originally Posted by naloth

Lately I've considered ST to be actively shown and HP to be passively visible.

B18's Build Table I'd sub HP for ST.

Originally Posted by naloth

You can't tell someone's ST until they use it (just like an innate attack)

Even then you might not be entirely sure what you're looking at. Like is it raw Lifting ST, or also high Lifting skill, or also Extra Effort? Or maybe someone weak being aided by a telekinetic ally or weight-reduction powers?

Originally Posted by naloth

but you can see their mass (HP) by appearance.

I think the problem is what you see in appearance is actually volume and not mass.

HP plays the role of mass for slamming though, so that's where things begin to get complicated when we use it to represent appearances too. Wolverine being a stereotypical example of someone who's heavier/more-massive than a muscular human of his size ought to be, due to metal bones.

You could have other high-density creatures or low-density creatures with less HP for slamming who still occupy the same volume as a human?

Originally Posted by naloth

Not really. You're extrapolating from mass how strong you believe they should be.

I don't know mass by sight, I extrapolate mass by a combination of volume and the composition of that volume (lean v fatty tissue). So it's like 2 tiers of extrapolation.

Originally Posted by naloth

ST has a fairly good correlation to HP, so it's generally not a bad way to form an initial guess lacking other information.

I'm thinking basically if you knew the height of someone, there should be some skill of estimating what their weight "ought to be" on the basis of general ideas of fat/muscle volume. Clothing could complicate estimates like that, of course, as would chars with non-human densities or hidden metal surprises.

Originally Posted by naloth

That's sounds like an examination. It's also an active test since you're applying force to see how the material responds to force.

Active or passive tests of a sense should work, with active tests working better.

Originally Posted by naloth

The Hulk doesn't have obvious DR. He's big and looks like a monster but you can't tell if bullets will bounce off.

With him it seems more like the flatten and just fall off.

I would assume guys like him and Supes have flexible/tough skin DR.

On the other hand, it's obviously possible to hurt your hands punching them too, as Spidey learned.

I'm wondering if maybe they can switch between the two depending on how hard they tense their muscles.

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Pricing it as Low or No Signature means that Superman's normal appearance costs hundreds or thousands of points for something that's only an advantage for the first couple of rounds of combat.

Isn't that really all you need, in many cases? Enough for the bad guys to shoot at you instead of the pedestrians?

Superman opts not to fully exploit his mundane looks a lot of the time by dressing in an identifiable costume so people fighting him know "oh, it's that guy with 1 million DR, perhaps normal guns won't work on him" but he could easily apply it in broader situations (use disguises, for example) so folks wouldn't know they're fighting a DR god.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Plane

I'm going to assume that if extra weight is due to fat and not muscle that I will be able to perceive that (and all the potential benefits to swimming which it will provide), because they will have one of the three disadvantages on B19 and that is why I am negatively reacting to them in a way I would not suffer reaction penalties to someone who just had high ST or high HP.

You're doing what now? Build Disadvantages don't include any reaction penalties.

Originally Posted by Plane

4) why do thin people get a penalty to disguise? They have more space to apply facial prosthetics and can easily just thicken their limbs with padding to emulate average/fat people.

If by 'skinny' we mean the exact same frame with less flesh on, maybe. It's a bit harder if you don't assume one skeleton fits all...

Originally Posted by Plane

I don't know mass by sight, I extrapolate mass by a combination of volume and the composition of that volume (lean v fatty tissue). So it's like 2 tiers of extrapolation.

Trivial search suggests that the density difference is something like 11 g/L vs 9 g/L. Your volume estimate probably is inaccurate enough to begin with that you're not really getting anything out of estimating lean tissue fraction.

Originally Posted by Plane

Isn't that really all you need, in many cases? Enough for the bad guys to shoot at you instead of the pedestrians?

Do agree here, the first couple rounds of combat can easily be decisive.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Plane

Isn't that really all you need, in many cases? Enough for the bad guys to shoot at you instead of the pedestrians?

Superman opts not to fully exploit his mundane looks a lot of the time by dressing in an identifiable costume so people fighting him know "oh, it's that guy with 1 million DR, perhaps normal guns won't work on him" but he could easily apply it in broader situations (use disguises, for example) so folks wouldn't know they're fighting a DR god.

That's absolutely true. And while Superman is obviously indestructible, Clark isn't and I know he's used that a few times without people realizing.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

You're doing what now? Build Disadvantages don't include any reaction penalties.

You're right, I was thinking of disguise/shadowing penalties.

However: I would say there's cultural justification here in different settings (and different population portions) to get a bonus or penalty to reactions if visibly fat or thin.

It SHOULD be obvious when you're fatter, and fat is definitely adipose since it helps give a swimming bonus for floating.